Archive for the ‘Podcast’ Category

The Best Virtual Staging Software & Tips (DIY & Pro)

Friday, January 27th, 2023

#369 – Mail-Right Show: The Best Virtual Staging Software & Tips (DIY & Pro)


The Best Virtual Staging Software & Tips (DIY & Pro)

If you haven’t shopped for virtual staging software lately, you might be in for a bit of a shock. Many apps that used to offer Realtors an easy-to-use DIY virtual staging platform now just sell done-for-you professional virtual staging—usually with a higher price tag. While that’s great for teams and brokerages with big budgets, many agents still want to get their hands dirty and DIY their virtual staging. 


DIY virtual staging: 

You take photos or videos and then use your phone or tablet to edit them yourself. You can drop in 3D furniture or use filters to remove items, boost color and contrast, or even change the time of day. DIY virtual staging puts the power in your hands to stage the properties, but it means you need to learn the software yourself.

Professional staging: 

You take photos or videos and then upload them to the company’s platform. You tell them what you want to be done with it, and they return it to you, usually within 24 to 48 hours. The advantage of such a service is that you don’t have to do anything; just send it in and forget about it.


#1 – Apply Design From $7 to $10 DIY Service Static Images and 3D 360 Tours

#2 – Spotless Agency $79, $99 &199 per image options Static Images Only

#3 – roOomy – $49 per image or virtual tours from $400 to $1,700 Static Images and 3D 360 Tours


#4 – BoxBrownie – $32 Static Images and 3D 360 Tours


#5 – Square Foot Productions – $29 Static Images Only


#6 – Hasten – (Call for Pricing) High-end service for the luxury properties Static Images and 3D 360 Tours


#7 – Cedar Architect Subscription-based service. For $59 a month DIY Static Images Only.

 Full Show Notes

[00:00:10.970] – Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Today we are doing episode number 369 of the Mail Right podcast. And today, we’re talking about virtual staging tools. I’m going to talk more about where these tools are positioned. And John, who’s had a chance to create list and research the list, is going to talk more, maybe about the specifics. Still, I’m going to try my best to add value to the conversation by explaining the few real-life situations where I know people are using these services and how they’re leveraging them and what I was overall thinking. So, John, without any further ado, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to people who may not know who you are and then take us away into this subject that you selected for the podcast today?


[00:01:02.790] -Jonathan Denwood

Thanks, Rob. I’m Jonathan Denwood. I’m the joint founder of We build beautiful semi or full-custom websites and WordPress for real estate agents. And we’ve also got a CRM and a plateau of digital marketing apps and tools to help you get more leads in 2023.


[00:01:26.300] – Robert Newman



[00:01:26.570] -Jonathan Denwood

Over to you, Rob.


[00:01:28.250] – Robert Newman

Well, no, we’re serving it up to you, so actually, never mind. You know what? I’ll tee it up for you. Number one on a list today is Spotless Agency. Now, here’s the description of Spotless agency. It’s a new virtual staging service where you can do one staged photo at $29. Okay? But what they’re doing is they’re basically doing virtual or AI design work, sending the photo back to you, and you’re taking a picture of a space, and then they’re going ahead and staging that photo for you. They’re Photoshopping it so it looks, however, like the design instructions that you might want them to do. So, John, now take it away.


[00:02:11.450] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, sorry about that, Rob. Yeah, it seems like a pretty good service. It starts at 79. They’ve got a kind of token-based system. You buy tokens and one token for one static image. They only do static images, and depending on how quickly you want the image back, the more it will cost you. I think it will take about three to four days; it’s 79 per image, 2040. 8 hours, it’s 99. And if you want the next day, it’s 199. Seem pretty good. I think the elephant I like about the opportunity is there seem to be three levels of services that these providers provide. Basically, they are static images. Staging. In static images, you got the image it’s a bear room, and you want, as you know, to show bare rooms on your website or send them to a prospective buyer isn’t the greatest idea because it’s better to stage them. But to stage a room or property physically is expensive and time-consuming. Doing static images is much cheaper. And there are three levels. The static images, there are 3D images that are more realistic, but the person that’s viewing them has to have glasses and Goggles to view the 3D image. And then there are 360 Tours, which it’s like a virtual tour of a property; you need special camera technology to take the actual images.


[00:04:15.640] -Jonathan Denwood

But I think now there are apps for your iPhone and your Android that can assist you in doing that. So I think that’s moved on to a certain level. But for those that make the 360 Tour offering, I think you have to get individual advice from them about which technology, what cameras, and what setups they require if they are going to process those virtual tools for you.


[00:04:46.170] – Robert Newman

Sure. So when you start talking about high-volume providers for images or clever digital presentations on the site, my pros and cons remain almost the same. Generally speaking, doing virtual stage photos if you’re doing condos model homes, if there’s a certain design style or a standard that’s prevalent throughout a large volume or a large amount of the same spaces, I think that these kinds of services can be extremely useful in creating case studies for how many different ways the same shape space can look in the same building, which makes an investment like this a no brainer for creating a unique and special website experience. When you start talking about somebody that’s in the luxury space, like a very nice size home, anything middle to the upper end of the market, you’re never going to consider any of these services. They’re just not going to deliver the customized value that your clients are expecting. The designers on the other end of the spectrum are usually not going to deliver the kind of unique finishing touches that people on the middle to upper levels of luxury expect. Like, I’m looking at these designs, and they’re all good enough, I suppose, but nothing really eye-popping.


[00:06:18.240] – Robert Newman

Even though some of these designs seem to be presented in $5 million plus New York apartments, I don’t know anybody who will design their homes this way. So that’s what I’m talking about. Specifically, I’ve had opinions from Top Realtors that have kind of echoed what I’m saying to you. But if you’re in certain markets, these services can be neat, is how I’m going to go with it. There are people that will figure out how to leverage this. In the meantime, specialized customer requests. It is good that everybody on the show, John, knows that these services exist. If you’re listening to the show and didn’t know that you could do virtual staging photos, guess what? You can. And for some clients who may have a very extra high level of service requirements expected of you, this is a line item that you can put in your listing contract that’s going to really add sizzle to a listing contract presentation but be something that you rarely have to execute on. And so saying that you’re familiar with the entire 3D photo arena so that you can give somebody a whole bunch of designs, ideas, maybe sit them down with the design consultant.


[00:07:39.830] – Robert Newman

And right now, John, I’m speaking to literally 1% of our audience, but that 1% you know exactly what I’m talking about. You’re sitting in front of somebody, you’re talking to them about selling a $10 million unit, which means that your commission on it is going to be 300,000 plus dollars. They have $300,000 worth of like listing expectations of you. They’re going to tell you there’s no way in the world that you’re worth as much money unless you’re going to spend hard dollars to advertise our property. And at which point you can pull out little pieces of sizzle like this and say, we’re completely adept at talking to the right buyer about how they’re going to design, develop and appreciate this home. And in those very rare cases, that’s when services like this become actual, have value, list value. And then for those of you who are ultra luxury, as you also well know, this is the kind of thing that you assign to your personal assistant, your real estate assistant, your transaction coordinator. You don’t do this yourself. You go on your review spotless agency and you send them there because you listen to the podcast and you send your assistant there and they go do the research for you.


[00:08:52.890] – Robert Newman

And now you can add it on to your line item for your contract.


[00:08:56.580] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, the only thing that was going through your mind and I just wanted to see what you thought about it because what it looks like, what the market is going to be like in 2023 and to some extent in 2024, I think there’s going to be more empty properties out there. And because of COVID and people to some extent they’re going back to the office or being made to go to back to the office, but I don’t think the market is ever going to go back to what it was precluded. I think the acceptance of people moving away from where they are based to another state and I think people’s acceptance to look at property before they get a short list of properties that they’re going to look at physically. I think the markets changed a bit and people viewing property and going further along the sales process online has moved on to some extent where these possible services have more relevance than maybe they did before pre covert. But I’m really interested in your view of what I’ve just outlined. I might totally off track there.


[00:10:24.100] – Robert Newman

I think that eventually everybody in real estate is going to be dealing with an almost completely digital toolkit, the same way every other industry has been changed. So yes, at a very high level and yes, I think this is part of the digital revolution. I think this is along a lot more people’s radars. Major metro market people like Houston, Dallas, California, most of Florida, most of any place where you’re driving 30 or 40 minutes to show home. Ladies and gentlemen, any tool that makes that unnecessary, such as the old idea of staging a home physically, everybody knows how much effort goes into that. You got to call the person, have a vendor on hand, get the homeowner to let you in the house. Do that staging. unstage it at some point. It’s a very extensive process, whereas these virtual tools allow you to stage and unstage a home in a matter of days with no coordination with the homeowner. So do I think that there’s a place for this? Oh, hell yeah. Just depends on where you are and what kind of business that you’re building for yourself. I strongly recommend that people be building a digital business, but I’ve been saying that forever.


[00:11:33.800] – Robert Newman

And only now after COVID, are people starting to listen. They’re seeing the days and the time in which all people want to essentially it’s going to be a ten step process, and the last step is going to be to walk through the home. You’re going to have schedule the person, come out to appraise the home. You’re going to walk the home, see the home, but everything else would have been done by that time. You’re not going to go back to the same home and show the same home 3456 separate times, which really happens, John. People like Realtors get forced to drive out to the same property many different times so that a buyer can keep walking that home over and over again. At a minimum, digital tools like this prevent you needing to do that. No longer does it like, hey, what happens if I put a couch in the corner there? Remember that one room? I don’t remember it. Can we go back in and get just like, let me look at that room or measure that room? No, here we’ll do it virtually.


[00:12:31.230] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, obviously state in the office, but also if you’re in one of the coastal cities or areas that’s on the radar for international buyers, I would imagine these tools become much more relevant to you.


[00:12:53.110] – Robert Newman

Yes, I do have clients that are already doing complete virtual. Okay. One of the things that’s made that popular second home market is a big market for doing completely virtual transactions. So they’re leading the way in these tools because people can’t travel as easily to a second home destination like Cabo San Lucas, Big Bear, Lake, Arrowhead, the list goes on. They want to do that. They’re going to do all of that or as much of that as possible virtually. So yeah, I think there’s a huge market for this, but let’s move on. Let’s go to the next one. The next one on the list is Hasten is what it’s called. It’s a 3D interior visualization tool. So talk to me about this a little bit, John.


[00:13:37.720] -Jonathan Denwood

Which one was it?


[00:13:38.650] – Robert Newman

Sorry, it sends you to Hasten.


[00:13:42.170] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, Hasten. Well, the research I did, it looked like they were aiming for the higher market side of it, the luxury market. The reason why I say that is some of the reviews that I read, they all said that’s what they were pitching at the luxury side. And to get a price, you got to call them. So that always suggests that they’re going to be in the higher end. They do all 3D, all three main services, static image, three D, and three hundred and sixty tools for you. But you got to get a price by bringing them up.


[00:14:19.800] – Robert Newman

Basically cool guys, boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, even though it’s run by some crazy freaking Swiss folk, three D and Matterport, which ultimately is CubiCasa and a number of other ancillary products, they still own the 3D space, ultimately. Do I think 3D can be useful? I just saw a $4 million property that was done in Venice, John, and I was looking at it legitimately. Like, I’m looking at it as the consumer because I was idly considering like a really high end work slash living space and splitting the space with somebody and like like upgrading my my work living game. Right. So I’m looking at it for reals, and I found that I was incredibly frustrated with the 3D walkthrough, which I think was a matter for a 3D walkthrough. I just wanted somebody to take the darn phone and just do a video walk through. It’s so frustrating for me. So I don’t think that I speak for everybody, by the way. I’m sure that I don’t. And I’m sure there’s process things that are problematic for real estate agents. Like maybe it’s easier to do these 3D things. I don’t know. But John, am I really all that impressed with this 3D?


[00:15:36.410] – Robert Newman

No, I’m afraid of that. I’m not.


[00:15:39.470] -Jonathan Denwood

I think it maybe just utilizes a marking initial, have it on the website to get them to call, and then if they can’t come, they’re too far away. You would arrange to do a walk through with them, or you probably have to walk through already as part. Well, if it’s that type of property, you think you would do a video walk through, but if you’re technically not up to it, I think maybe getting one of these services or getting somebody to do it for you and then uploading it to one of these companies, it’s better than nothing, isn’t it? I think it varies.


[00:16:21.610] – Robert Newman

It does vary. It’s better than nothing. I don’t disagree with those things. Everybody that’s listening to show you a gimbal and your cell phone ten times better in my opinion. Ten times better in terms of how you market it. Ten times better about where you post it. But if you’re really stuck virtual staging, 3D, virtual, it can be okay. I’m not a big fan. That’s just the truth, John. Sorry.


[00:16:52.550] -Jonathan Denwood

No. Shall we go for a break?


[00:16:55.830] – Robert Newman

Sure, let’s do that. So, ladies and gentlemen, my name has been Robert Newman. I’m the founder of Inbound REM. You can find out lots of information about me on We are pretty much the leader, maybe the only inbound marketing company out there doing real estate, SEO and stuff like that at a very high level. But I appreciate you turning into the show. So does John. If you could do us a favor, wherever you’ve seen us, heard us, leave us a comment, do us a thumbs up. It all matters. We do this show out of mostly goodwill. Little bit of like, hey, we’re really good at what we do. Pay attention to us. But a lot out of, how can we be of service to you? So thank you for tuning in. We’ll be right back.


[00:17:41.730] – Speaker 3

Do you want quality leads from homeowners and buyers right in your own neighborhood? Then you need mail, right? It is a powerful but easy to use online marketing system that uses Facebook to generate real estate leads at a fraction of the cost you’d pay from our competition. We stand behind our work with a no question asked, 30 day money back guarantee. So don’t delay. Get started today. Go to


[00:18:06.570] – Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to episode number 368. Is it eight or nine, John?


[00:18:12.770] -Jonathan Denwood

It’s 69. Three, six, nine. You’ve already got another thought yet before your sentence is finished, Robert?


[00:18:20.860] – Robert Newman

Okay, 369. It’s a really lucky number. Three, six and nine. So if you’re into numerology, today’s show is lucky. And we’re going to talk about we’ve been talking about virtual staging. We’re moving on to another company that John has selected for us called Square Foot Productions. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about this, John?


[00:18:39.990] -Jonathan Denwood

Yes, good price, static image only. Don’t offer a DIY. Some of these companies, not many of them also offer a DIY app or service, but they don’t. But of those that you got to get them to do it, it’s not a bad price, but it’s only static images, and it’s $29 for image. I don’t know what the time, how much time they require, because I looked at the website and I couldn’t find it that particular. I’m sure it’s probably there, but the price seems pretty good.


[00:19:22.770] – Robert Newman

Okay, assuming that this so I have a surprise here, John. Assuming that they can do what they say that they do at a high level of quality, I’m a huge fan of Square Foot Productions, okay? The simple video editing of taking a cluttered room and uncluttering it without you having to clean it up from your client means that you can walk through your assistant can walk through a home, take all the same series of pictures inside your home selling process, hand it over to Square Foot Productions for visual editing. They will declutter, basically create a perfect environment so you don’t have to have the client professionally clean their house, professionally stage the house. They do aerial, spotlight, photos. They do all sorts of really cool things. Now, I want to emphasize that neither John nor I have actually used this company, picked it out of a hat. So the reviews are good. What we can see looks good. The service is what we’re talking about, the idea of the service. And we’re not promoting these guys. We don’t know them. We’re just saying that the service they provide, if it’s provided as advertised, it’s pretty damn cool for very reasonable price.


[00:20:39.530] – Robert Newman

Like turning a daytime to nighttime photo. Your photographer takes a kind of weird shot of it with a house that has a lot of shadows in it. These guys edit the shadows out and make a nice sunset photo for you. It’s really your house. They used your core image. It’s a beautiful service. Doesn’t break any copyright laws, just alters the edit existing thing. Makes the photos far more appealing. It’s such a low cost that it’s easy for most agents to work it into like a cost versus sales structure. I like it. That’s my overall input.


[00:21:13.510] -Jonathan Denwood

Okay. Box Brownie yeah, like what they got to offer. They do static images, three D, three hundred and sixty. They do the whole spectrum. And it starts at the static images at $32. The free D tours, I think that started at around $600, and depending on what kind of tour you got or need, it goes up from there. But they had some nice training tutorials on their YouTube channel. I did watch a couple of them and they seem to know the initial impression I got. They seem to know in the price for the static image isn’t outrageous.


[00:22:02.790] – Robert Newman

So once again, this is just a clever photo editing like tool, things like that. And it can be cool. These guys that are doing a very specific thing where they’re essentially doing a very pricey thing for a reasonable cost. 360 renders are cool. Interior renders are cool. Exterior renders are kind of cool. The interior renders are going to be the thing that you really want to pay attention to. They can help move the needle. Do I really think that this is worth the $280 or $400 an image? Not usually, but then again, they’re very cleverly doing these renders for commercial spaces. Commercial spaces which commercial real estate, while John and I don’t talk about it very much, is definitely something where these services retain extra value because professional business people have higher degrees of expectation about how they can perceive a space can be altered. And you’re only signing a lease. Like oftentimes a building which is leasing a space might not have to lease it except once every ten years, which means that there’s a very high level of cost associated with it. But there’s also a high level of reward, which means that customizing the space using these virtual tools, in my opinion, for commercial at the prices that we’re talking about with Box Brownie makes a lot more sense than residential.


[00:23:35.510] – Robert Newman

You’d have to have pretty gosh darn nice property that you’re representing to make it worth it. John.


[00:23:47.370] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I agree. On to the next one.


[00:23:51.390] – Robert Newman Hit me with it.


[00:23:53.710] -Jonathan Denwood

Love the name. $49 does the full spectrum static images. Three D, three sixty for the free. The virtual tours. It’s from 400 to 1700. Okay, so to give with Brownie, they only have a starter price, which is around 600. They start for 400, but they give you from 400 to 1700. Because I’m not a photographer expert, I can only give you my initial impression of the website, the verbiage, the offering. I just went with Box Brownie a bit little more. But you just got to do a dive, talk to them and find one of these players that has the Pacific offering at the Pacific price that’s attractive to you.


[00:24:55.790] – Robert Newman

True. So Rumi does a little bit of a better job in simplifying the idea than Box Brownie. But I agree with John. The actual demos on Box Brownie appear to be much more robust. Rumi seems to be focused on a more sparse presentation style on their website. That’s all that John and I at least that’s all I am basing my opinions on.


[00:25:23.500] -Jonathan Denwood

Just the sign.


[00:25:25.770] – Robert Newman

So there’s some interesting visualizations with roomy that are a little bit more complete than the ones I saw with Box Brownie. Gives you an understanding of how these 3D room like visualization and staging products would really work. We had a friend of mine on a long time ago Robert, that does this kind of work. John this kind of 3D. So I believe in it as the future of the business, as I said then. But I do think that in terms of what power you served right now, currently, we’re served very well with video. There’s one feature that Rumi has that I am now going to retract, which is called a measurement feature, which allows you to measure between elements in a room, which you don’t even get to do when you’re physical, when we catch up with functionality like this. Ladies and gentlemen, when digital can do this, measure a space, give us inches and square feet, and then allow you to replace furniture inside this virtual space that you’re building. That’s the day that people are going to prefer to do digital walk throughs than personal walk throughs. And we’re approaching that day. John are we there yet with any of these tools that we’re looking at?


[00:26:41.230] – Robert Newman

No. Are we getting there? Yes.


[00:26:43.940] -Jonathan Denwood

We’ve sky in there and AI. We’re all going to be replaced. Robert.


[00:26:48.620] – Robert Newman

Oh, God. John, stop. All right, we’re going to go on to the next one. Aptly design IO. I have enough of those kinds of AI conspiracy here inside my circle of friends. I don’t need you to start up on it.


[00:27:09.370] -Jonathan Denwood

Was it applied Design that we’re talking about?


[00:27:12.240] – Robert Newman

Apply design?


[00:27:12.960] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah. Well, they’re one of the few that’s got a DIY product, and I watched some of their videos and I was quite impressed. It’s a token system. You buy a token one tokens for a static image. They provide all three services static free D 360. I don’t know if their DIY product can do all three or it’s just static images. I didn’t do a deep enough dive on that particular subject, but I did look at some of their own videos and other people’s review and the interface, the library of objects. It was quite impressive. If you’re just looking, there’s a real need. You’ve got a really nice property or a reasonable property, and it’s bare and you just want to do a couple of the rooms and you want to do it yourself or get your assistant to have a guy that’s it and not cost a lot of money. Have a look at what they’re offering. I was recently impressed. Robert?


[00:28:23.370] – Robert Newman

Sounds good. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are on to our last wait. That was our last well, I’ve got.


[00:28:30.850] -Jonathan Denwood

One more that I added after I sent the list to you, and that’s a company called Cedar Architect. And they only do static images. They do have a DIY product, but the interesting thing is it’s a subscription model. It’s the only one. All the others, you pay by the image or whatever you want. This Cedar Architect, they do a subscription and it’s $59 a month. And I’ve got the impression you can do as many static images as you like.


[00:29:08.750] – Robert Newman

Seems more like a design CAD software, right?


[00:29:17.730] -Jonathan Denwood

Well, they seem to do the static images as well. Yeah.


[00:29:22.850] – Robert Newman



[00:29:25.590] -Jonathan Denwood

I was just interested in the subscription model.


[00:29:28.790] – Robert Newman

I think this kind of software is going to be for people that have some type of preexisting design experience coming out of school, in which case this is going to be really exciting. If anything else, I’m on the site. It is overwhelmingly complex, so just keep that in mind, everybody. It’s very similar to it’s like an AutoCAD for those of you who are familiar with it. Okay. It’s chief architect interior design. Like, we’ve occasionally looked at coral, coral, kad, CAD. I’ve looked at some of these things as I’ve tried to design wireframes for websites. So 3D modeling on websites and basically wireframes is just as relevant as it is for normal blueprints. Like, it’s the same thing. People don’t understand how well, like, traditional design concepts play into web concepts. Really the same thing. So you use some of the same programs like you can theoretically, I’ve tried oftentimes. It doesn’t work. Usually you need people dumbing down the technology. Because I am not an architect. I didn’t go to school for years or spend any time using all the tools that architects use. Having said that, this is a very unique tool. I would agree with John’s assessment.


[00:30:50.260] – Robert Newman

It’s unique in this space. And if some of you are looking for both a different payment model and a different level of tool, maybe one with a slightly higher end like conceptual application, I would agree with you.


[00:31:06.150] -Jonathan Denwood



[00:31:09.030] – Robert Newman

Well, John, ladies and gentlemen, we are right there. At the time limit. And today I have a missing animal, unfortunately, in my house and I have to rejoin the search ASAP. I took all the time to make sure I was still present, but I’m like, I’ve been checking my phone, looking for messages. Got six people in the neighborhood right now, all looking around. Thank you so much for tuning in. I’m going to ask John in a second here how you may find him, if you’d like to. John is a wealth, a whole deep well of knowledge on various ideas about how to market your real estate business. Plus his agency builds really cool real estate websites that you can check out and should check out. So, John, without any further ado, how would people check you out if they indeed wanted to?


[00:31:55.740] -Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, thanks for that, Rob. We’re looking for some regional and city champions, real estate agents that want to be a male right champion. And if that’s enough interest, what do you get? You’ll get your website for a year for free and all the digital tools for a year for free, and we host your website. And after a year, if you’re not happy with us, we will move your website to another hosting provider. But hopefully that gives you the confidence to try out the system and then become a Mail right champion in your area. If that sounds interesting, go over to the Mail Hyphen right website and book a chat with either me and Adam and we love you to consider being a male right champion.


[00:32:48.780] – Robert Newman



[00:32:49.110] -Jonathan Denwood

Over to you, Robert.


[00:32:50.690] – Robert Newman

Beautiful. That’s a hell of an offer. And if anybody wants to learn more about me, you can go to and I would love to have conversations with people inbound marketing about SEO, things like that. And if you don’t know what those things are, just look up the acronyms and the acronyms interest you. I’m the only guy that does these things in the US at the level that I do them. So if you haven’t heard of them, I’m not surprised. Thank you so much for tuning into the show. I think that’s John appreciates this. I sure as hell know that I do. I appreciate every second, every minute that you guys spend with me and John. We do not take it for granted and we do hope that you’ll come back. Bye.

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#368 – Mail-Right Show: Best Real Estate Lead Marketing Tools For 2023

Sunday, January 15th, 2023

Best Real Estate Lead Marketing Tools For 2023

#1 – PostcardMania

#2 – Promo

A – produce marketing video advert quickly and painlessly

B – 3,000 Templates

C – $25 per month paid yearly 36 Premium Clips per year

#3 – Canva

A – Great free account

B – thousands of great templates

C – Only $119 per year

#4 – Jasper

A – Helps you produce great copy for your website, and Facebook adverts, plus a lot more

B- Easy-to-use interface

C – $40 per month


#5 – Tailwind

A – posts automatically to Pinterest and Instagram accounts and Facebook page

B – Ghostwriter AI writing service

C – Starting at $12.99 per month, paid yearly


#6 – SurferSEO

Price $49 per month


Episode Full Transcript

[00:00:12.810] –
Robert Newman

Welcome back to the mail. Right, Podcasts? Ladies and gentlemen, today’s episode is number 368. Woof. We’ve done a lot of these. John and I are going to talk to you today about we’re going to have a little bit of back and forth in this because John was saying best Real Estate lead Marketing Tools for 2023, and I didn’t really have a chance to get back to them and say maybe we should just say some unusual ideas for lead marketing tools for 2023 on the list. I’ve tried five of these six tools so I know how most of them operate, which is probably why I didn’t communicate back to you super fast. I was like, oh, I know all these tools except for one. So without any further ado, though, I think this is going to be a really fun podcast, especially if you like to hear me and John go back and forth about things. So let’s introduce John though for those of you that may not know him. And then, I’ll introduce myself. Go ahead.

[00:01:15.750] – Jonathan Denwood

Thanks, Rob. I’m the joint found of mail, right? We build beautiful websites on WordPress for real estate agents, and a host of marketing digital tools will be part of the package. It’s a great value package. Go over and have a look at it.

[00:01:31.730] –
Robert Newman


[00:01:31.950] – Jonathan Denwood

Over to you, Rob.

[00:01:33.550] –
Robert Newman

My name is Robert Newman. I am essentially the only inbound marketer that focuses on real estate, which is a whole bunch of things all wrapped into one storytelling, SEO many, many different things. But you can go to my site and learn everything that you need to know about all of those subjects. Without any further ado though, let’s go on to talk about the set of tools. Now I want to give a summary, so everybody knows what we’re going to be talking about. We’re going to be talking about,, Jasper, AI, tailwind surfer, SEO; those are the list of tools that we have up to discuss today. They’re a good list of tools. Maybe postcard mania, or did I pull that from someplace else? Yeah, postcard one.

[00:02:19.470] – Jonathan Denwood

Number one is postcard mania.

[00:02:22.030] –
Robert Newman

Okay, so let’s start there, then. Without any further ado, why don’t you discuss with me why did you put postcard mania on this list, John?

[00:02:35.860] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, I think a lot of people, if they had regularly listened to this podcast, would get the impression that we are all about digital marketing, and to some extent, that’s true. But I think both of us have made it really clear that we are not against more traditional forms of marketing. And when it comes to action postcodes and other printed outreach, I think it really can be part of your marketing quiver and can be really quite effective and cost-effective. And I think you have mentioned that some of your clients do utilize print media quite successfully. And this particular company they don’t totally specialize in real estate, but they have parts that do, and they can send out you can get postcards and other printed materials at very reasonable prices, and they have a very good reputation. What do you reckon, Robert?


[00:03:47.930] –
Robert Newman

So I reckon that postcard strategies can be and oftentimes are incredibly effective. I currently have in my list of clients for Inbound Ram, one of the people that has made the most waves of anybody that I’ve ever met using postcard marketing. And her strategy is to partner with local artists, get original pieces of artwork that focus on the communities that she services and then translate those onto a postcard and send it to her clients. Send it to people. Now, I don’t think she does handwritten notes because she farms the entirety of two full communities. It’s probably 25,000 cards if I had to guess. So I doubt she’s going to be doing 25,000 handwritten notes, but she may have a single note that gets printed on the back of these cards and perhaps she signs them because that is the kind of person that she is. Everything is about the personal, the thought out, the details matter a tremendous amount to her. So somewhere on the back of these cards there’s a little note that says and by the way, I hope you enjoy these beautiful pieces of art that local artists have produced. So the card actually promotes the artist more than it promotes herself.


[00:05:02.950] –
Robert Newman

And when all of that is done, she mentions this was ultimately sent to you by Sharon Steele. So anybody is curious, you can just Google Sharon Steele and you’ll be able to see her strategy. She talks about it on our website a lot and it makes her a lot of money. 50% of her business probably comes from this postcard strategy that I’ve just described and she is one of those real estate agents that is in the enviable position of being in the top 2% of income earners inside the profession. So it is definitely in the right place, in the right hands. Postcards can be devastatingly effective.


[00:05:48.910] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I might be wrong here, but when I did my research on them, I think they do integrate with a certain number of CRMs. I’m not sure if any of them are the Pacific leaders in the real estate sector, line desk or follow up boss, but I think there’s some that they do. So definitely have a look at them. Shall we go on to the next one?


[00:06:16.950] –
Robert Newman

We should just give me 1 second here. I have written about this, but unfortunately I am not in the top ten or 20 results on the Google search results, which is pretty rare. But anyway, if you go to my site, I’ve done a full post with expanded thoughts on how I feel about postcards. So number two, The only video maker that you need join millions of business creating videos in minutes. The unlimited media from iSock and Getty Images. All right, so John, you you go first.


[00:06:52.520] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, well, we’ve been hammered for the past two years, and especially in 2022, we hammered away about video. You know, you got a powerful tool in your pocket, your iPhone or your Android phone. But making videos or getting over the hurdle is difficult. That’s why you should be doing it, because a lot of people won’t to make videos for Facebook, for social media, and having an editor. Promo provides it all. It provides a web based editor and app editor for your phone. It provides a library, extensive library of video templates with royalty free music video, videos in a library, and you cannot pre made ones. And it starts at $25 a month, paid yearly. You get so much of the library is what they call free videos, and then they have what they call premier clips at the starter plan, like I say, which is $25 a month. You get 36 of these premium clips, as they call them. I haven’t personally used it, but I gave the website a good look over and it looks a pretty cool service to get you going into producing more video. What do you reckon, Rob?


[00:08:34.230] –
Robert Newman

Well, I think a toolkit like this, something that makes it video easier, is definitely something to look at. I get ad nauseam big websites that produce video trying to talk to me and do something called getting backlinks, like they want to post blogs. Video IO is one. There’s just so many there’s so many of them, and I’ve never really dived too deeply into any of them, including So, unfortunately, in this subject, while I can agree with John 100% that if this is a toolkit that is going to increase your ability to make an efficient video, then you should do that. My only additional piece of commentary is to take us back, because there is an easy way to get a feedback from people who are doing lots of video on their website. You can very much get into people get input from people who are actively doing what you’re doing on Facebook. It would be the Real Estate YouTube Mastermind, which are done by friends of the show. We’ve had both the founders of this group on the show in the past, Matthew, and I am not remembering as clearly his partner, but if you just simply look on Facebook, you go and you search the group real Estate YouTube Mastermind.


[00:10:03.480] –
Robert Newman

This is the place where I would go and drop a comment about, what does everybody think about and see if anybody is using it and just basically get your own internal reviews from people who are real estate agents. And I think that that would be brilliant if you took the time and did that. Blissfully john, this is the only tool of the ones that you listed that I can honestly say I just don’t know that much about, but everything else I’ve used or used currently. So thankfully, I will be able to speak to them with a high degree more of expertise.


[00:10:40.010] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, you don’t have to buy the yearly, you just get the cheaper price. You can go month to month. I think the month to month is around 45, 55, so you can try it for a month. I think you can sign up for a free plan, which you can try out. You can’t export anything out of it, but you can sign up for a free account and play around with the back end. I think do that and then just pay them for a month and try it out. It’s not a ridiculous price and they look pretty feature rich. And they do have a library of templates designed for real estate. So I think anything that can get you making video and utilizing video in 2023 is worth a go at maybe, but I think what you’ve said is also fantastic. Onto the next one. Canva? Well, you can have a free account. The free account is useful on its own. It’s not crippled. It has a lot of value. The Free Account or Canberra. But to get the real power canva, you want the Premier, which is about for a personal account. It’s 119 a year, so it’s not ridiculous.


[00:12:04.590] – Jonathan Denwood

I know all these subscriptions do add up. If you’re producing images, producing flyers, it’s got a lot of value. I use Photoshop, but I also use Canva and I pay for the Premier for the 119 a year and I find it well worth the money. What do you reckon, Robert?


[00:12:38.370] –
Robert Newman

So me and the team here use Canva. We are building most of our infographics off Canva, so I can’t really say, as with most design type products, my eye for them is the ease of use, the price and the execution. But I’m coming at this from like an agency leader standpoint, not from an I’m using them personally standpoint. Here’s what I can tell everybody about the feedback that I get from my team. They say these guys are the hand down leader. There’s lots of templates that you can choose from. There’s almost every type of content that we want to produce. That’s a graphic that already has a template, so we can just go and remove or change elements. Since we’re in the real estate space, as everybody listening to the show, there isn’t actually a very high bar for custom graphics that you might put into a blog post, put into a flyer, put into something hard copy. The bar is very low, making canva for us in the real estate business an incredibly valuable tool. John just said the premium I don’t even know what the premium price is. If I’m paying $119 a year for canva, then it’s got to be one of the best values that we have for a production based tool.


[00:13:51.450] –
Robert Newman

So I think very highly of it, john and I think that everybody should, if anybody is interested in graphics, they should look at it. But it is one of those things where it doesn’t make any sense unless actually I’m probably using canvas for teams now that I look at the options. The idea here is that you’re producing graphics to go along with your business. And if you are, if anybody here is listening to the show, is spending a lot of money on custom graphics, this might be something to look at to cut your costs down and increase your productivity.


[00:14:28.070] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I think like I say, that they have a free version. The free version, they have a certain amount of their library which you can have access, they have a stock imaging, imaging, which so much of it’s available with a free plan. I think if you start using it, I think for anybody that can’t afford to hire a graphic designer to help them, I think it’s invaluable tool to keep all the time plates they provide. So it will help you produce flyers, graphics, thumbnails at a certain standard that won’t look amateurish. So I think it’s invaluable and it’s something if you’re not looking at, if you’re doing a lot of this work yourself, which a lot of real estate agents are, I think it’s invaluable. Shall we go for a break, Rock?


[00:15:29.410] –
Robert Newman

Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, while John and I do promote our businesses on here, our first interest in the show is making sure that we’re giving you valuable information mostly on the subject of marketing for your real estate business. That’s it. We don’t know if we do a good job or a bad job. Our user count grows, our repeat listeners keeps growing. So we presume that we’re doing a great job, but the number one piece of feedback that we look for, that we hope for, that we wish for is something like comments or written form feedback. You can email me at robert inbound REM. But more probably a better bet would be to email Jonathan or John at mailrightmail. Is it malhefen right? Even on the email?


[00:16:10.090] – Jonathan Denwood



[00:16:14.070] –
Robert Newman

Okay, All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for tuning in one way or the other. And we’re going to give you a small break and we’re going to be right back.


[00:16:23.610] – Speaker 3

Do you want quality leads from homeowners and buyers right in your own neighborhood? Then you need mail. Right? It is a powerful but easy to use online marketing system that uses Facebook to generate real estate leads at a fraction of the cost you’d pay from our competition. We stand behind our work with a no question asked 30 day money back guarantee. So don’t delay, get started today, go to


[00:16:48.690] –
Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. It’s episode number 367, I think, 68 and we are doing a show on good real estate marketing tools for 2023. And the reason I keep hesitating is the next tool up on our list is Jasper AI. And this is literally the reason that I will not be using the words best real Estate lead marketing tools for 2023, which will give John a clue as to how I feel about Jasper AI. But before we jump into that, John, have you used Jasper AI?


[00:17:27.390] – Jonathan Denwood

I use alternatives. Jasper is one of the leading, obviously utilizing AI for copyrighting and that has become a very big topic. I’ve been using WordPress equivalent, which we offer on all our websites, which is Bertha that uses AI technology. OpenAI is the company that is the leader in providing the background technology that all these type of products like Jasper is built upon. And Jasper is one of the leading SaaS providers people, and I’m sure Rob is going to I’m guessing what Rob’s going to be saying, which is dangerous because I could never work out what Rob’s going to say. I don’t even attempt to work out how his mind is working. That’s a good one, Rob. You should green. It basically helps you write content and it can be abused, but a lot of people really suffer in getting going. It’s a bit like video. It’s a bit like promo that we discussed in the first half for the cost. I really see it as a tool to help you get more video. I see Jasper as a tool in helping you produce some content for your website and getting you over the hump. I see it’s an aid.


[00:19:31.330] – Jonathan Denwood

But a lot of people I think there’s a balance here. I think it can be overplayed overstated what it can do, but I also think it’s useful. Over to you, Robert.


[00:19:46.250] –
Robert Newman

Okay. AI is a hot topic. I follow like two people on Twitter and one of those two people who is Rand Fishkin, who many of you may not know, but Rand Fishkin is a pioneer, an incredible dude that had previously built one of the most relevant SEO companies that existed called And I just like the way that he approaches everything. He’s a very well researched guy. He always talks from a deeply, like, educated perspective. And his comments to AI were that he tweeted today. So interesting that John brought that to my attention. And I’m going to ask that you bear with me here. Just give me 1 second worth of patience.


[00:20:56.990] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, I got no worry about that. You were patient with me last week because I was late. I had a flat tire. I was in a bit of a mess when I arrived late for the show.


[00:21:08.310] –
Robert Newman

Here’s what Rand said, and it echoes what I feel. Here’s my favorite take so far on the Chat GPT and AI content. Hype train. I hate the hype around chat GPT Whenever the topic of AI writing tools comes up, I’ve noticed that the proponents of AI tend to group everything else into two camps haters and technology ludites, and fellow fans and avid users. I don’t fit into either group. I’ve been enthusiastically playing with every AI tool I can get my hands on. Jasper copy AI, chat, GPT, stable diffusion dollar e canvas, existing AI image generator. On the other hand, I don’t agree that these tools will change the world of professional work anywhere close to the scale that most coverage describes. I would love to take these tools on the repetitive marketing task I currently find mind bogglingly boring. But we aren’t there yet. I have used Jasper AI extensively. I was hoping that the tool would eliminate some of the guest blog posting responsibilities that we still handwrite. I have a team that writes over 300 guest blog posts each and every single month. I was really wanting and hoping that this tool would either take some of the weight off or all of the weight off that team.


[00:22:25.920] –
Robert Newman

I have discovered that Jasper AI isn’t even remotely close to being there yet. It does not write anything that’s engaging on a human level. It does repeat itself, even though, theoretically, they say it’s not supposed to. It does. I’m telling you, not from the perspective of this is not an opinion. I use the tool on similar subjects in similar areas because that’s what we do. I wasn’t trying to trick the tool. I was trying to experiment with it for workflow, and it did not work. I cannot be more clear about that. Did not work. It regurgitated large segments of the same content, slightly different, but not enough, unfortunately, to make it past Google, which is what is just flabbergasting me, is that these tools are literally advertising, including Jasper AI. On its home page, on the scroll, it’s saying, use this tool to produce SEO content. Holy meatballs. Everybody that’s listening to the show, do not do that. You will get yourself penalized into the ground. Google has been very vocal on the subject of AI and using AI to produce content. And I’ll summarize it, don’t you dare do it, is what they say.


[00:23:49.370] –
Robert Newman

That is literally what they say. And if they catch you doing it, and they catch you doing it in Plentitude, you are just asking to have your website blacklisted. Because if AI could write all the content on the site, number one, that would defeat the purpose of what Google is supposed to be about. But here’s the most important thing. Google is filled with rocket scientists. They’re very smart people. We all wish that machines would produce content at a level that a smart human being could learn something from the machine. None of them are there yet, including Rank Bring. The AI that Google uses. They’re just not there yet. No machine learning has learned enough yet to educate us on a subject, which means that human writers and human content producers and human thinkers need to be behind something if you’re going to really try to provide valuable to a searcher. And guess what? Google’s core business is providing value to searchers which means that AI runs directly contrary to Google at this exact moment. Which means if you try to use it for SEO, you are guaranteeing it. So here’s the problem. You might get away with it for a little while because maybe you wrote a piece of content or two that nobody else had written yet.


[00:24:59.230] –
Robert Newman

But you really think that everybody in the real estate game is not going to get in there, or that they’re not I mean, there’s like 1.6 million pages on Van Ice. I live in a podunk town in the middle of, like it’s just not a very exciting place, and yet there’s 1,600,000 people have written about it. So what do you think is going to happen with your little towns and your little cities? It’s going to happen. And when it happens, the website that once ranked well is going to go get its ranking dropped into the ground, and you will not be able to figure out why that happened. I’ve seen this type of shit hit the marketplace in the past, john, I cannot emphasize enough how deeply I think you need to stay off this train. And I don’t even know that you’re ever going to be able to get on the train because Google currently and I see John’s frowning. But here’s the thing that most people say I’m frowning.


[00:25:52.110] – Jonathan Denwood

It’s just dickens. Sorry, I interrupt.


[00:25:55.080] –
Robert Newman

That’s okay. I just think people don’t understand the way that Google is, like, reviewing even what are supposed to be standard content pages. Like, you’re going to catch a penalty. You get penalized if you use a big provider. Like, let’s just say somebody’s producing 10,000 websites like Agent Image, and they have the same buy sell page that they put buy, sell real estate. Sell real estate. And in the past, it was always very exciting for all of us to say that some of your website content was going to be written for you and then you didn’t have to worry about it. Guess what? Replicative duplicated pages even like that, even ones that are no followed, impact your SEO ranking. So there’s a way to get Google not to read those pages. There is no way to ignore the user behavior that comes off highly repetitive websites, which is very bad. Okay? If you produce a site that looks similar and acts similar as a competitor right down the street, and you’re thinking that you’re going to get great user behavior, which is in turn going to yield you good SEO rankings, I’m here to tell you you are wrong.


[00:26:56.020] –
Robert Newman

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Go ahead and write your own pages. Even put down a sentence. Put down a link someplace else, but make it original. That’s what Google rewards in terms of rankings and anything else, you’re either taking a penalty or you’re hitting the neutral button, the neutral gear button on your site. Now, having said that, the place that I think the AI is kind of exciting, John. And that could find a use for everybody right now is some of the use cases on it I do agree with. So the use cases of writing emails I do not agree with. Writing sales copy. I do, however, agree with writing certain customer service copy, certain business mechanics copy, post process copy. But here’s the thing that everybody I think is forgetting. You do have to go and proof the copy. You have to read it because it’s not producing perfect copy. It doesn’t matter. I’ve never seen an AI, I’ve not personally tested an AI, John, that’s producing perfect copy. If you have, then you have got an experience. I have not, no, I think the.


[00:28:03.870] – Jonathan Denwood

Majority of what you said I would agree with. I just see it as a tool to some extent, but a limited tool. And I think if you see it and they’re promoting it like you say, but they’re bound to, aren’t they? Also, Google is going to have no love for this because Microsoft was one of the largest investors in OpenAI. They have invested about 50 million. Open AI is an open source, but it’s a nonprofit company and Microsoft has never liked open source or nonprofit companies. So I was a bit puzzled why they were one of the major investors. Because they came on my radar about a year ago. But then we found out the past couple of months, it’s become very obvious why Google Microsoft is because they’re planning to invest I think they publicly have state they’re going to invest a billion dollars into open AI.


[00:29:15.810] –
Robert Newman

They already have. I just watched the CEO talk about this the other day on a program in India and they’ve got an Azure backbone there. They’ve invested most of the designers, developers and engineers for the core programming came out of India. And this is Microsoft stab at probably defeating Google’s monopoly. They hope the AI gets good enough to be able to write content autonomously. This is a competition between two massively sized technology companies.


[00:29:50.810] – Jonathan Denwood

Yes, fundamentally, I just see it’s overplay tool overhyped to some extent, but I do think it’s a legitimate tool. But you can get into some hot water if you don’t really know what you’re dealing with. So let’s go on to the next tool, which has as part of its sales pitch, AI writing tool element, that’s tailwind and tailwind. I want to point out that Mail Wright has a similar functionality than this. But basically it provides a library of content that you can set up in a calendar scheduler for Print, Pinterest and Instagram. And for Facebook, it has a library that’s specifically aimed at real estate agents. It’s also included what it calls a ghost writer, which seemingly works with Pinterest API and write some reasonable stuff for your images that you’re going to place on Instagram. And the price starts at 1299. I haven’t used it for what the price level if it helps you post more to these platforms, I think it might be worth a look at. I’m not indulcing it. I’m just saying, have a look at it. What do you reckon?


[00:31:37.150] –
Robert Newman

So Tailwind is I use it. I’ve used it for years. Do not use the AI feature so that everybody knows, we manually write our Pin descriptions. Okay? We manually write those Pin descriptions on the actual images because Pinterest will import the image into Pinterest, and then you will get the description that’s located inside the image into Pinterest, which is what makes, like, the way that we have done SEO optimization. We add a layer of value for the handful of people that actually post images off their site, because, honestly, the captions are already done for you. You just post the caption. It comes complete with the writing into wherever you’re sending it to, whether that’s Instagram or Pinterest. Pinterest has always been one of the most valuable SEO tools that we use. There is definitely a social component to the way that Google ranks sites. There’s a branding logarithm that Google uses to rank sites making anything that you consider related to Pinterest interesting. Instagram can’t be read by Google. So if you’re thinking about SEO, there’s no value on Instagram for that except for the transfer traffic from that platform to your platform. John, you’re off screen.


[00:32:53.240] – Jonathan Denwood

Oh, sorry.


[00:32:56.550] –
Robert Newman

So I apologize for the interruption and for that. John. So, guys, I strongly think that Tailwind has value. It’s a cool tool. It automatically adds value. There’s other tools that are interesting in this space. I think that here’s a secret. I do use automated or behavioral marketing in certain elements of my marketing, which is how I know what does and does not work. Audience I test. It exhaustively trying to find the places that we can hack like Google or Social without breaking any big rules and still getting strong results for our clients. I’ve probably tested 50 or 100 tools so far. I will keep testing them, by the way. I’m not going to back away from testing them. I’ve only found one that I can use out of all that testing. I’m not going to name it. I worked way too hard to find it. But I’ll tell you what it does. It automatically posts to a number of social platforms simultaneously leaving comments on people’s profiles, liking and disliking stuff, and building audiences. I’ve used this tool to build my audience on Pinterest, which currently stands at 17,000, and I have done very little to do that.


[00:34:21.510] –
Robert Newman

So to say to everybody here that’s listening to the show that there’s not a place that there can’t be a place for tools like Tailwind and other tools that automate really arduous processes. Now, why do I have a tool that automates something? Well, I’m already creating unique graphics and design elements and unique content on my site. I spend a bucket ton of money doing it all. I want is to promote it in social places. That’s all I want to do is take actual, real, deeply valuable information that I have produced that is original, and I want to promote it on other platforms. That’s where you get complicated. It gets complicated. I found a tool that kind of does that. Okay. It does it well enough. So Tailwind does make that process easier for a single user trying to post stuff off a website. If you have a personal assistant, if you have a social media marketer in the Philippines, if you have anybody that’s helping you, then I think Tailwind is brilliant. If you don’t have anybody that’s helping you, I think it’s too manual. That’s my opinion.


[00:35:24.230] – Jonathan Denwood

Yes. On to the last one. Server SEO. It’s a pacific SEO tool. It uses some of the elements of artificial intelligence. It starts at $49 a month. It’s a quasar professional level SEO tool. Robert is an expert on SEO. He might disagree with that statement.


[00:35:53.070] –
Robert Newman

We use it. John, I’ll cut you off the past. I currently use it, and I use it on every single article that we publish on inbound REM. But I have a very specific thing out of the toolkit that they’ve done very well for $50 a month that automates this one thing extremely efficiently. But I don’t use the rest of the toolkit.


[00:36:13.990] – Jonathan Denwood

I think I use one of its competitors.


[00:36:20.090] –
Robert Newman

Why wouldn’t you put the competitor down here?


[00:36:27.630] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, I think somebody trying. I think it’s a good tool. I’m a cheap skate. I’m using something I got a better deal on as polish new design terms as it does the job. Maybe you can explain what surfer SEO does for the audience, Rob.


[00:37:00.300] –
Robert Newman

Well, it does a lot of things, but what I use it for is the semantic keyword recognition component of it. So what we do is we feed a title of an article in there and we feed like a written article into it. And usually we’ve got about 1001, 500 words, 3000 words. When you are pretty convinced that you’re going to write a blog post that is going to rank in the search engines here’s, where most people, myself included, lose a lot of value on that article, your article can rank for either 100 keywords or 1000, depending upon the semantic value of the article. Now, semantic value is really mostly in the headers, the headers that you’re using inside your content. That’s mostly what Google is examining. And then they’re comparing it to the title and seeing how well those things add up. Now, what surfer SEO does in an instant is measure all of your subheaders, not the title of the article. There’s plenty of tools out there that do that for you. What’s a good title? Keyword research. There are not that many tools that do a really good job at looking at your subheaders and saying, oh, you should change this to this or that, and then.


[00:38:09.390] –
Robert Newman

So you go down the content and you change your headers up, and you sometimes can increase the reach of the same article. You’re not really rewriting the article. You’re just kind of changing around the headers and such. And you oftentimes double the reach, increase the reach by 10% surfer. SEO for that one task is pretty cool.


[00:38:33.730] – Jonathan Denwood

I use it because the articles rewritten takes a few months for Google to assess them, and then I use other tools to keep an eye on it. And then I use a similar tool to give me insight about how Google seen it, how I might be able to improve the article if it’s not ranking as well as I hoped. And I just use it as a method to help me improve existing articles, and I found it useful for that myself. And it has worked. But you got to know a bit about SEO, and you got to be motivated to consistently utilize it. Like all these I see, all the things that we’ve outlined, maybe even canva everything we’ve outlined, none of it’s ridiculously priced. And they’re just tools, basically. They and if you’re at a certain stage where you can’t afford to also have people helping you, that might help you improve your digital marketing as a real estate agent. That’s why I thought it was a reasonable list. What’s your thoughts, Robert?


[00:40:10.380] –
Robert Newman

My thoughts are you added a thing at the end, which I agree with, but I’m going to add just a contrary thought. So John has listed a whole series of tools that all pretty much fall under the sub, $100 a month. And if any of you are brand new agents with very limited budget, selling one or two homes per year, making $30,000 to $60,000, whatever the number is, this is a great list if you happen to be in $100,000 range anywhere in the US. I’m going to add one tool to this list that I feel dominates all the tools, and that is a virtual assistant that comes out of one of the countries where you can pay them a reasonable living for somewhere between three and $6 an hour, which is mostly parts of India, Pakistan, and Philippines. Now, Philippines is where I go. It’s where I suggest you go. But if you get stuck, you can look at these other countries as well. So a personal assistant can if you’ve created any processes around these tools, you can use a personal assistant for that. Actually, one last thing on the list. It’s not so much a tool.


[00:41:21.310] –
Robert Newman

It’s, if any of you haven’t heard of this service. For between five and $20, you can get a lot of marketing tasks done for you for the amount of money that you spend, as long as you spend a little bit of time making sure that you’re shopping for a good vendor for the task. A lot of things done. Thumbnails on graphics. The same graphics that I spend my money on in canva. You can actually have somebody do them for you on fiverr, no problem. Like that’s one thing you can get done all day long, video is a little bit more expensive on fiverr, but you can get it done there. Content copywriting, you can get that done there. So basically every single thing that we’ve listed, you can get done, including sharing images on social media, it can all be done on fiverr. So it’s a one size fits all recommendation. These are the additional thoughts. But ultimately, when John is listing these tools and I’m looking at them, he is absolutely correct. Each one of these single tools does an important thing to install inside your marketing process. But the most important thing for all of you, everybody, including John, listening to the show is create a process that other people run and take yourself out of it.


[00:42:28.290] –
Robert Newman

And then focus on improving the process so that it gets you more people to call, more people to do what you really do, which is sell real estate or keep in touch with people. But a process with fiverr as part of it, or a virtual assistant, even more important, even if that person was working for you one or two days a week at 8 hours a day, $24 a day, you could get them for $116, which is really not that much different than the rest of these services. Go ahead.


[00:42:59.370] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah. Or you can try it out and then get somebody to do it for you, either using the service or doing it themselves. There’s a host of ways to approach this. I think it’s time to wrap it up. Rob, what do you reckon?


[00:43:18.510] –
Robert Newman

I reckon that you are correct, sir. So let’s do this thing the way that we always do, except I’m going to switch it up. My name has been Robert Newman. I am a real estate online marketing consultant. I’m an SEO guy. I’m an inbound marketer. I’ve been doing it for 14 years. I have founded a company called Inbound REM. We build websites, we do SEO campaigns. We’re really meant the service is designed for the veteran agent, the veteran broker who’s looking to own everything that they do, all the content, the website, all of it, and take themselves off systems. So if you want to learn more about that, go to John, how would people look you up?


[00:44:04.270] – Jonathan Denwood

Just go to the Mail hyphen website. And if you want to book a chat with me or add them, you can book it on the website and we are always happy to have a quick discussion with you and see if we can help you.


[00:44:17.730] –
Robert Newman



[00:44:18.050] – Jonathan Denwood

Over to you, Rob.


[00:44:19.310] –
Robert Newman

All right, brilliant. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. We’re excited to continue to serve up incredible content in 2023 and we hope that you’ll be along on the ride with us. All right. Have a great day. Bye, you.



The Hosts of The Mail-Right Show

Jonathan Denwood & Robert Newman



Robert Newman




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#367- Mail-Right Show: Redefining Digital Lead Generation Goals in 2023.

Monday, January 9th, 2023

Redefining Digital Lead Generation Goals in 2023

Welcome back to episode number 367 of the Mail Right podcast. John and I are incredibly excited to be back on the show to talk to all of you. And we’re going to talk about something that John has brought up using different terminology in 2022. But the name of the show is redefining your Digital Lead Generation. Goals and Expectations for 2023. This is something that we’ve talked about in pieces, and I thought that it would be a really good idea to kick off the new year and start our own do the whole episode. Now, before we get into that, I would love it if all of the audience could be introduced to you, john, I would also love for you to explain to them why there’s a up in the upper right-hand side of the show.



The Hosts of The Mail-Right Show

Jonathan Denwood & Robert Newman



Robert Newman




Episode Full Transcript

[00:00:11.210] – Robert Newman

Welcome back to episode number 367 of the Mail Right podcast. John and I are incredibly excited to be back on the show to talk to all of you. And we’re going to talk about something that John has brought up using different terminology in 2022. But the name of the show is redefining your Digital Lead Generation. Goals and Expectations for 2023. This is something that we’ve talked about in pieces, and I thought that it would be a really good idea to kick off the new year and start our own do the whole episode. Now, before we get into that, I would love it if all of the audience could be introduced to you, john, I would also love for you to explain to them why there’s a up in the upper right-hand side of the show.


[00:01:14.040] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s a very good question because you’re lucky that we’re here at Audience. I’ve had some car troubles, flat tire, so I’m 15 minutes late. And Roberts just got over Covert-19 The virus got him in the end. So that is why you got that. But I will remove it right now. And that’s it. I have the technology.


[00:01:52.550] – Robert Newman

John isn’t kidding, ladies and gentlemen, we made it here by the skin of our chinny chin chin. And I’m I am personally so happy not to be feeling terrible. Like, I am very excited. I’m basically just excited to be capable of speaking because I really got kicked in the proverbial, you know what, for this last round of COVID. So here we go. With no further ado, why are we talking about redefining digital lead generation goals in 2023? All right, so let’s get into the numbers so far. For 2022, we’ve watched the real estate market decreased by about 20%. Most realtors that I know are looking back at their income versus 2000 and 22,021, and 2022 and recognizing the fact that they’ve seen a decrease in many cases for the first time in years, this decrease is going to carry over into lead generation. The logic is there. Most people understand that. So you should be redefining your goals. But what most people don’t understand is what a normal lead generation market looks like. Even people that have been advertising for years don’t remember three years ago. Unless they’re really good at tracking their numbers, they don’t remember what they were getting three years ago.


[00:03:25.890] – Robert Newman

John, do you remember what you were what results you were getting from your marketing three years ago?


[00:03:30.850] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Not very. Looking back, it’s improved quite a lot. But I am not as religious about my tracking like you.


[00:03:47.210] – Robert Newman

Which comes down to what we’re going to talk about, which is what should your goals be, what should your expectations be? What should they be of individual companies, depending upon their strategy? So I’m going to make a bold statement. I’m going to ask for John to follow up with it. Excuse me, everybody. And the bold statement is going to be this. If you are using a paid advertising service, that is, anybody that’s using paid advertising to drive people to a destination, okay? So anybody that’s advertising on Facebook on your behalf, anybody’s advertising on Google on your behalf and you’re sending them to a website, your expectation should be for lead count to drop by 30% to 50% in 2023. Right. Take it away, John, with your thoughts.


[00:04:42.650] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, yeah, I agree with that, basically.


[00:04:48.090] – Robert Newman

Okay, so number one, you have that expectation, lead count is going to drop. Okay, so we check that box. We’ve already said it in other shows. What’s going to make this show unique for you? Well, here’s something that hasn’t been talked about a lot that I’m going to talk about a little. I’m doing my deep dive analysis. So John, I haven’t had a chance to talk to you about this yet, but for the first time in many, many years, sometimes in some cases ten years, some of the real estate marketing companies out there that I have obsessively religiously told everybody they don’t really update much. There’s nothing new for me to report on my review from four years ago, so I’m not going to say anything new. They’re updating, all of them. Leading the pack is Walopo. Right behind Walopo, shockingly, is KV corps, who hasn’t updated a single thing since 2016. So now they’re, they’ve got a massive list of updates that are coming out on KV Core and there, there are other systems that are following in suit, but here’s what most of you don’t know. KV core wailopo sync boomtown. They are massively oversold.


[00:06:11.190] – Robert Newman

Okay? So even though I’m giving you all of these numbers right now, something that I don’t think occurs to the average agent to ask is, when you buy a service from any of these people, how many other people in this marketplace are you doing business with? It’s a reasonable question, because John, would you agree with me as a fellow real estate marketing professional, that the more people doing the exact same thing inside an enclosed demographic, let’s just say reno, okay? Would you not say that the more people doing the same thing lessens your personal chance? Like if you’re doing the same thing as ten other people, do, you not lessen your chance for success based on the fact there are ten other people doing the exact same thing as you?


[00:07:01.590] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, well, I think that would be logical, wouldn’t it? Obviously, I think the only parameters that might affect it slightly is if you’re in a very large urban area, like if you’re in the Bay Area or San Francisco or you’re in Dallas or Seattle that could have been the size of the market, the effect. But then it would just depend on I just instinctively would suggest that it’s slightly not. But any kind of average market, depending on how many they allow in per area, will have an effect yet here’s.


[00:07:50.560] – Robert Newman

What my boots on the ground information has been for a long time and I got tired of talking about it. Just listen. You just said something critical without realizing it, depending on how many customers they allow. Guess what, John? Would it surprise you if I told you that most real estate marketing companies do not actually cap the number of customers that they take in per area?


[00:08:22.370] – Jonathan Denwood

Not really. But I would have hoped that on the upper end of the price bracket, I think I would have expected it to be regulated by the sheer cost of the system. So the percentage of possible clients that would be interested in that particular platform would be self regulating. Is that making any sense?


[00:08:48.920] – Robert Newman

Yeah. And sadly, I’m here to say that that is not correct. Now way back in the day, when Wailopo had founded Tiger Leads, tiger Leads was pretty good about selling X number of people into X number of zip codes. They actually had a fairly regulated way of managing the system. Now when they decided to use Facebook, which does not leverage zip codes, they lost that ability to manage clients based on zip codes. So they’re using some murky internal system, probably based on city name or neighborhood name, to try to put a number of people into a marketplace. I have had many calls, many, many calls where clients are like I’m tired of receiving, like sending out a text to a client and them telling me that I am the fourth real estate agent that has sent them exact same text. Because just like everybody else, while system, the system is the same no matter who’s using it. So if a person responded to an advertisement in one place, responded to another advertisement someplace else, they’re going to get the exact same message, the exact same. And they’re going to know for sure that whatever you’re doing, you’re using the same marketing as competitor B or C or whatever.


[00:10:14.390] – Robert Newman

Which definitely does not make you look like unique little snowflake in the marketing world. So I’ve been hearing these reports, of course, from the reason I mentioned Wailpa is I’m surprised. I usually have a very high opinion of the team over there. And I am not saying that I still don’t have a high opinion of the team. I do actually. But I think that they missed a major thing because there’s no doubt, none whatsoever, that their system is oversold. And I could have guessed that because they’ve got 1114 thousand people as part of their success community. Now, if you or I or any other real estate marketing company had 14,000 active recurring clients, we would have to really have sorted those clients out correctly in order to not have oversold our territories. Same thing goes for Zillow and Trulia. These platform companies, they have oversold their territories. Generally speaking too, their solution is simple. The more people that we put into the system, the more. We scale back how much leads each individual agent gets and we keep increasing our profit margin. It’s nuts. We will just literally take the same market segment. We’re producing 100 leads inside it.


[00:11:32.510] – Robert Newman

You’re paying us $800 for however long we’ve been giving you 50 leads. But guess what? Three other people signed up for also $800. So now we’re going to give you 25 leads, them 25 leads, the other guy, 25 leads. And that’s how we’re going to setture that problem, though you use different language surrounding it, but that’s ultimately what they do. And so whether or not your lead system has been oversold should impact your expectations. And I recommend that every actually, I’m going to get John’s buy in. I think that as I tighten my belt and I’m watching my dollars more closely, I think this is deserving of a phone call to my existing lead provider to ask them how many other people are targeting this exact same market. What do you think, John? Do you think that’s reasonable? Unreasonable? Do you think that’s something that you would take the time to do? Or you think I’m just being anal?


[00:12:40.130] – Jonathan Denwood

I’m sorry, I’m a bit silent, which is a bit tricky on a podcast. I really don’t know if you’re going to get anywhere. Basically, I suppose it really depends on your contract length with that particular provider, the size of the client you are with them. You got much larger customer base than me. We’ve only got a very small customer base, but I actually think my product is a lot more sorted out the last 18 months than any time I’ve been running mail. Right. So that’s a tricky one, because, like I said, it really depends. I know most for understandable reasons, most of them on year contract. I suppose it really depends. I think it’s probably worthwhile it just depends on how they value as a client, what kind of answer you’re going to get from that phone call.


[00:13:55.880] – Robert Newman

And I think that John is raising some good points. Let’s just say that you call your provider and they refuse to give you an answer, or they give you a vague answer or a workaround answer, but it’s not a specific answer. It’s not like we have four clients in the same area targeting the same thing. Let’s just say it’s a run around answer, I’ll get back to you. And they never do. That should show most of you where your level of priority is with your lead provider. And I would say that has to be in my opinion, that has to be an important conversation for all of you. We are no longer in a boom market. Now, I don’t think that we slowed down or I don’t think the market is crashing in the way that even I predicted that it might. So please don’t misread me, but I do think the market is slowing. The numbers say it’s slowing, it’s not. Robert newman saying it, though, there is a number out there. I think it’s 20 or 30%. The market is slow, maybe not for every single person listening to the show, but it has slowed.


[00:14:55.310] – Robert Newman

So what does that mean that some of you should be doing? In order to do lead generation goals? You should be questioning your existing lead provider. Even if you have no intention of giving them up. Find out how important you are to them. You should be very important, I promise you. Companies like Yelpo Sync Boomtown. They’re Hemorrhaging clients. One thing that you might be able to do is you might be able to get increased priority with existing marketing spend by placing a call to your lead generation provider moving into a shaky market. How do you think about that piece of advice, John?


[00:15:34.010] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, it’s very linked to my previous answer, really. That conversation. Depending on the size of customer you are, you got every right to ask that. You got every right to have a conversation, a serious business conversation. How responsive that provider is going to be is really going to be really driven by how important they see your custom, aren’t they?


[00:16:02.240] – Speaker 3



[00:16:02.870] – Robert Newman

And so we’re going to go to a break, ladies and gentlemen. And when we come back, we’re going to keep feeding you a couple of this is a mixed show. We’re going to give you some advice about what you should be doing. But all of this ultimately should be affecting the conversation of lead generation goals in 2023. Maybe one of the lead generation goals that you’re going to have is to change lead generation providers based upon the kind of prioritization that they’re giving you, which is reasonable considering the fact that no longer are you just a number. You have been for a long time. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a marketing budget in 2023 and you’re spending it, you’re no longer a number. Trust me. All right, we’ll be right back. Do us a favor. Wherever you’re hearing the show, if you’re watching the show, do us a favor. Give us a thumbs up. Give us a comment. Tell John that you love his haircut. Something, anything. All right, thank you. We’ll be right back.


[00:17:01.910] – Speaker 3

Do you want quality leads from homeowners and buyers right in your own neighborhood? Then you need mail, right? It is a powerful but easy to use online marketing system that uses Facebook to generate real estate leads at a fraction of the cost you’d pay from our competition. We stand behind our work with a no question asked 30 day money back guarantee. So don’t delay. Get started today. Go to


[00:17:26.510] – Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Mail Right podcast. We are talking about redefining your lead generation goals in 2023. So far in the show, John and I have been discussing lead providers in specific territories being oversold in two 1212-021-2022 idea of reexamining your relationship with your lead generation provider. In 2023. And we’re not saying to ditch them or get rid of them. We are saying call them up and get back in touch with them and start to re explore how important you are as a customer to them, is what I felt like we said. Would you agree?


[00:18:08.730] – Jonathan Denwood

Yes, I think what you outlined is fair. I think a very small percentage of clients are going to do that. I think a lot of them, they’re not going to do anything or if their contract is getting close to ending or it’s month to month, which some of the companies it just really depends because some of the price points of some of the not KV core, but some of the other companies over there really aimed at a very successful individual, small team or brokerage level. And they’re going to be annual contracts. But I suppose maybe you’re on because I was thinking that a lot of people are just going to either cancel or not bother. But even if you got quite a bit on your contract, having that conversation really should be a leading primary if you’re going to renew that contract when it comes up.


[00:19:19.490] – Robert Newman

Correct. And some rock solid advice as you’re discussing and renegotiating your contract. So guys, forever. I have been talking about on my personal website, on this podcast, how you are oftentimes entered into golden handcuffs with your real estate marketing company during boom markets, which we have been in for ten years. Getting your real estate marketing company to negotiate with you is going to be dependent solely on how much you’re spending with them. Most of the time, like 90% of the time. Guess what? As panic sets in at these real estate marketing companies, even for those of you who are not going to move providers, and you’re looking at your goals in 2023, one of the ways that you can increase lead generation effectiveness is by making sure that you’re getting the maximum value out of the money that you’re spending. How do you do that? Well, one of the things that bugs the hell out of me when it comes to some of these other providers like Boomtown Sync, they make it difficult to move your leads from one place to the next. Okay. If you’re going to renew your contract with them, a really sneaky way to make sure that you’re maintaining and increasing value out of your current lead generation provider is to get access to all your existing leads to say, all right, I’ll sign another agreement.


[00:20:36.660] – Robert Newman

I’ll extend the one I’ll continue on and not exercise an early exit out of this contract. But I want complete and total access to all the names and numbers I’ve generated in the form of a CSV spreadsheet, which is an Excel document for those of you who do not know, and we’re going to download all that information and take control of it. That’s a good way for you to get a lot of extra value out of your provider. Now, some of you already have access to your leads. Those who are using follow up boss, you do. Those who are using a lot of other systems. KV Core, I think, does allow leads to be uploaded and downloaded. It will. Boomtown is the worst and most egregious people that don’t allow access to your data sync, I’m not sure. It’s probably complicated because everything on sync is complicated. So I’m not 100% sure. But I can promise you it’s probably complicated because everything is complicated. Chime, I’m unsure about what the rules are in terms of uploading and downloading on Chime, and I am fairly certain that lion desk is incredibly easy and I could go on and on.


[00:21:46.290] – Robert Newman

So really you’re probably talking about a couple of the really expensive platforms and you want to make sure that you’ve accessed your data. Now John, you said you had a whole copious amount of notes. Why don’t you hit me with some of those before I use up all of our time?


[00:22:00.490] – Jonathan Denwood

Copious because I was leaving it for you.


[00:22:07.130] – Robert Newman

I can keep going. No problem. Okay, so having said all that so let’s just say, ladies and gentlemen, that you’re looking at scaling back your goals or expectations by 30% to 50%. Now here’s the exercise. If you’re looking at your numbers and saying, I’m going to make 30% less GCI or 40% less GCI, and I’m spending X amount on lead generation, let’s call it $3,000 a month. So I’m spending $3,000 at $36,000 a year. I made $750,000 last year. I’m going to make 550 this year. You need to compare those two math, those things, and then you need to make sure that the margin between what you’re spending on leads and what you’re expecting to make makes sense. In many cases it might not. In some cases it might. There’s pros and cons to keeping your goals at the same place that they were in terms of your lead generation spend this year. Now, a pro is increased importance to your vendors. You can negotiate better contracts, better extras, better everything. If you take the time, as John said, I don’t believe most of you are going to take the time to reach out to your vendors, but that handful of you that do, you might have extra negotiating power if you should do that.


[00:23:31.760] – Robert Newman

Okay, number two, and he’s agreeing, he’s nodding, and he’s even said yes. I think he really thinks that that’s a thumbs up. Well, I’ll let him tell you.


[00:23:43.350] – Jonathan Denwood

I think it’s the way you do it. None. Is it business like and just business like? Basically. I think you got every right to ask those questions. I just feel a lot of the times I was going to say that you’re probably not going to get a lot of information back. I can’t really base that on any knowledge, really. So it’s not right for me to say that. Is it.


[00:24:18.290] – Robert Newman

Okay? Sure. I got no comment. You’ve got a valid opinion. So what’s the remaining bits here? So you look at the math, you go, Can I or can I afford? So you may need to adjust your spend down. But here is what most of you should know. I am honestly on my blog and everywhere else, in most cases, I’m advising that people re examine their math. Because if you are looking at your marketing spend and you understand that you’re looking at best at a two to one or three to one ROI, this is the time, ladies and gentlemen, that you focus on longer term strategies that have higher ROI. Because even in the long term world of inbound marketing, or information age marketing, as I’m starting to call it, even in that world where we’re sitting here going, oh, it’s going to be longer than direct, like paid advertising, it’s not right now. The timeline is roughly the same. So you’ve got roughly the same with one type of marketing giving you an incredibly deeper upside, like way deeper upside. Instead of two to one to three one, you could still be looking at 20 to 130 to one way.


[00:25:43.230] – Jonathan Denwood

Would you be interested in how Malwight dealt with this question? Sure, yeah. Because I believe in being totally honest with the audience, basically, it’s been up a five year journey plus. But I’d say really only in the past three years, three to four years, that I’ve been able to really work on the system, got it to a level that I was happy with. But the way we dealt with it, we had to make a decision, and we did this. We have a DIY product that has a library of landing pages and PDFs, and we have a weekly zoom where we advise anybody that joins the zoom. And we’re giving some insight and some group training about how to set up a Facebook marketing campaign, but it’s a DIY level. And then we up to all the prices to a much higher level on the campaigns that we will run for a client to a kind of bestoke level, which is on the mail. Right? And I still think it’s great value, but it’s a much higher price than something like Bold Leads. And that’s how then we can spend the time in producing individual campaigns that will get some results, which also normally includes a high level of video marketing on Facebook, but they’re at a much higher price level.


[00:27:41.060] – Jonathan Denwood

So that’s how we dealt with some of the issues that you’ve outlined in this podcast.


[00:27:47.190] – Robert Newman

Perfect. And I agree with that. And for those of you who don’t know, because I didn’t know like six or seven months ago, I knew vaguely what that bespoke meant custom, but I have discovered that it came from the custom tailoring world is where that term came from and now is applied to the digital world. And it means custom, it means that somebody will design something to your specifications, essentially. So one way or the other, when we’re talking about lead generation goals in 2023, I think that one. This is a great time to start saying you’re willing to double down if you have the budget. This is a time for you to be looking at long term. Long term, in my opinion, is 100% in the information age arena. What is that? That is where you give detailed answers to questions that people can find on your website, on your Facebook page, on whatever platform that you’re going to use to disseminate information. In my opinion, obviously, and John’s probably as well, is that a website is the best possible central hub for all of that information. Now, we make these things, we’re in that business, so maybe you got to take what we say with a grain of salt.


[00:28:58.580] – Robert Newman

But I have put all of my time, energy, and money into that category. But once that information is there, you have to get people there. Now, you can do that through organic marketing, otherwise known as SEO. You can do it through social marketing. You can do that by simply brute effort where you’re posting stuff all the time, but you’re probably paying somebody to post. So it’s still paid advertising to a degree, except if you own the content, if it’s your answers to questions that people are asking, nobody gets to take that away from you. Once you’ve produced it digitally, it’s yours. You’re protected by two or three different types of copyright laws. Take a picture. Same thing applies. You’ve got a digital copyright whether you know it or not, especially if you have a DMCA badge on your site. This is what I constantly refer to as taking charge of your marketing destiny. Stop relying upon others. When you own the content, you own the answers, you own the website, you own the result. And even if Google was to go out of business, you still retain all of the work that you’ve done in the past, very similar to people who created really deep sales manuals 20 years ago.


[00:30:16.610] – Robert Newman

Go ahead.


[00:30:17.490] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, can I ask a question? Because I’ve been dying to ask you, as you were saying this in the second half of this show, do you think it’s the right question to ask you? Because if I was looking at one of these higher platforms like Boomtown, if I was looking either to change ship or I was looking at that higher level of provider, I don’t know if they’re aware of this. I really would be looking at a custom WordPress website, follow up boss and hiring a team. If I was looking for paid advertisement over on Facebook, Google, I’d be looking to hire agency a team. If I couldn’t run it in house, I’ll be looking just a higher team to run and utilize something like Follow up boss with my own website solution. The reason why they look at something like one of these higher end solutions is it they just offer Swiss Army knife in one can in one place, and that’s the real attraction. That’s why they go there. But they don’t understand some of the drawbacks which you’ve outlined in this show.


[00:31:46.370] – Robert Newman

Actually, usually it’s ease of use is the idea that they’re sold on. Almost always it’s ease of use. We have a mechanism. You use our mechanism. It’s a guided mechanism. You’ll get business that’s simple. But it isn’t. It isn’t that simple. There is actually no provider that does a very good job of selling somebody correctly when they walk through the door. And everybody learns that the hard way, which is why we have a podcast, why I have a business, likely why you have a business. They’re not knowledgeable enough on the sales side to educate people when they come through the door about how big of a gap there is between a tool like Boomtown and making a profit off it. You must have a disciplined salesforce using that tool correctly to get value out of $1,000 a month CRM, full stop. And you got to train everybody on it. Now, I will say this. Boomtown is easier to learn than KVCore and most other tools. But is Boomtown easier to learn than follow up boss? No. So guess what? You have a better option at one 10th the price. That’s where these big teams don’t know that they don’t know that.


[00:33:01.660] – Robert Newman

They don’t know. And follow up boss is not in the business of marketing themselves that way. Their I market follow up boss better than follow up boss markets follow up boss. Follow up is just like, hey, we’re CRM. Come check us out. We do good for real estate, right? They don’t say no. We can effectively step up to the plate and be as just as good of a CRM as Boomtown. We can effectively step up to the plate and take your team of 50 and give them a dashboard to look at. And you can watch everybody placing calls out of follow up boss. Same thing as Boomtown. You don’t really get told that there’s nowhere that their marketing really clearly identifies that. Whereas with Boomtown, they clearly are in your face all the time saying, all the best and biggest teams use our system. It’s so easy. It’s so nice. Give us $1,500 a month just to start.


[00:33:56.090] – Jonathan Denwood

To be honest, you probably got more experience of this, I don’t know recently, how difficult or how easy is the follow up API to integrate with a WordPress website? Then one more time, how easy is it to integrate follow up boss with a WordPress website?


[00:34:19.910] – Robert Newman

Super simple. They give you like a pixel. The same way that Facebook does help if you have a team like to do it, because people get confused about inserting pixels and headers on websites. That’s just the way of it. That little. Piece might daunt like 50% of the people. So if you want to spend $100 and have somebody off fiber install the Pixel for you, do that. It’s still easier and still cheaper by far. I will say this, there are systems out there like Sync and KV Core. Here’s what KV Core has going for it. KV Core now has the largest open source digital library of training of any system I’ve ever seen. You can find so many different training videos on how to use KVCore. It raises my estimation of the platform. Not because the platform has changed or any of my technical reviews have changed, but because if you get enough help, you can be successful in even bad systems. If you just have somebody pointing out every pitfall and everything that they had to work around and giving you the solution and bite sized pieces, it becomes much easier. Like anybody could be successful no matter how complicated or difficult the system, because other people have gone out, tried, failed, learn from it, and then educated you without you going out, having to try and fail.


[00:35:46.810] – Robert Newman

All you got to do is do the learning. That’s kind of true of any platform, really. Now, maybe some platforms have a higher learning curve than others, but KV Core has hundreds of videos that I’ve been able to identify, at least 20 or 30 of which are being done by qualified people using the platform, achieving success out of it. So they’re giving you tutorials. They’re giving you tutorials now Boomtown doesn’t have that. Follow Bus doesn’t have that. Sync doesn’t have that. KV Core stands alone because all the guys and gals from EXP who are making recruiting money are using KV Core because it’s an easy platform to install. Like they can give it to you for $25 a month. KV Core is going to continue to be their go to platform until somebody else creates just as good of a platform and allows you to add agents to it for an inexpensive amount of money. Sorry, I went off on one there, didn’t I? My bad. John.


[00:36:46.370] – Jonathan Denwood

No, it’s just interesting because I truly mean this list of some views. If I was got to the stage where I had a reasonable budget, I would honestly look at WordPress, Fire up Boss and then just running the campaigns. There are some specialized agencies that will run the campaigns for you through Google or through Facebook that specialize in working with brokerages and power teams. There’s about three or four of them out there where you’re not being locked into a specific platform. I’m a bit puzzled, but I’m puzzled, but also I totally understand because it’s just a more it’s just the ease of use argument supposedly, isn’t it? Which you outlined, right?


[00:37:55.750] – Robert Newman

Which is not a real argument. But that’s why I do the videos that I do. That’s why I do the education I do, is that people don’t realize that. So I’m slowly god, it takes a lot of time, John, but I’m slowly chipping away at that old block, letting people know you’ve been sold a bill of goods. My friends and the people making these platforms like Boomtown has been doing this for ten years. They know what they made. They made something way ahead of its time. Ten years ago, they’re way behind the times now, ten years later, they’ve updated. Almost not at all. They understand that their market momentum is what propels them.


[00:38:36.950] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, I think it just depends because, basically, we’ve done these reviews. I think what you would say about Boomtown is the actual website is the same template, it’s the same solution. They don’t really customize it very much. And then the back end, I think you’ve said, and I would agree, that it’s one of the easier ones to use. And the normal functionality, which is around texting, and sending out emails, so you can keep in contact with the list that’s inside it, gathering information. But the bit that’s extra that they can help you run in that is the actual campaigns, isn’t it? Having the CRM platform isn’t going to produce a client paying a commission check. It provides the organization. But the campaigns, if you’re going to go down the paid route, it’s a campaign that can provide the traffic, which then hopefully will be converted into the system and then converted into a commission check, isn’t it? I don’t really think a lot of people understand the different bits, do they?


[00:40:06.450] – Robert Newman

I would agree with that. But, ladies and gentlemen, we can deep dive into some of this on another episode. Just so that you know, the idea behind this was the market is changing. Your lead generation and marketing goals should definitely be looked at now, this year. Right now, as you listen to the podcast, I am unsure of that. There’s no doubt that you should re-examine it. I’m not telling you to take action. I’m not poopooing your existing marketing company. I am saying, dear God, everybody else is re-evaluating. You should be too. All right, thank you so much for tuning in for us. For those of you who made it for your first show ever, god, what a great show for you to fall on. Thank you. For those of you who are tried and trued and loyal listeners who tune into John and I, I know you guys are out there, you’re very quiet, but there are thousands upon thousands of you. So thank you so much. We really appreciate it. We’re excited about 2023. I’m speaking for John. John, if you do want anybody, if you’d like to close out the show in your own way, or if you’d like people to reach out to you, find you, whatever, how would they do that?


[00:41:13.210] – Jonathan Denwood

The best way is just to go to the website, and you can book a chat with me or add them through the website we’d love to help you out. Back. Over to you, Rob.


[00:41:22.870] – Robert Newman

And I am the same answer, except that my website is the same thing as what’s behind me right here. It’s You can go to my about page and learn a little bit more about me. And if you’d like to inquire about some of our services, feel free to use the contact form. But I do recommend that you read all the content that we’ve produced or read my landing pages before you do so because we are not the company for everybody. We’re different. There’s only one of us. So be sure to read the stuff on my site before you book an appointment with me. All right. Having said all that, thank you so much. We’re going to go. Give us a thumbs up. Give us a like, tell us we suck, and we don’t care. Just communicate with us. We appreciate it. Have a good one. Bye, you.

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#366 Mail-Right Show: With Special Guest Aaron Weiche CEO & Cofounder of Leadferno

Thursday, December 22nd, 2022

How to Close More Leads with Text Messaging

Real estate agents, did you know that communication is evolving fast and over 89% of consumers want to 2-way message with your business? Now you can leverage a business text messaging app that combines SMS and multiple messaging services. You can even enable your existing business phone number to send and receive text messages.

Aaron Weiche (WHY-KEY) is the co-founder and CEO of Leadferno, a text messaging platform for businesses to close more leads faster. Aaron is an entrepreneur founding and led multiple software companies and digital marketing agencies over the past 20 years.
Prior to Leadferno he was CEO of GatherUp, growing it to serving over 25,000 businesses and appearing in the INC 5000. Aaron lead GatherUp to an acquisition in 2019. Aaron speaks internationally on digital marketing, customer experience, conversion, and messaging.

Episode Full Transcript

[00:00:11.290] – Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Mail Right podcast. This is episode number 366. Three six six. Those are magical numbers, and I mean that literally. We are here today with Aaron Weiss, who is the CEO and co founder of of Lead Furno, which is not even the only thing that Aaron has done. It’s just the latest thing that Aaron has done. He has got an epic track record. We’re super excited to have him on the show. Aaron, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience?


[00:00:39.870] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. An easy way to describe it, I’m a lifelong digital marketing addict. Luckily, I found the industry as it was starting to mature in the mid to late 90s, started building websites, started building digital marketing agencies, building websites and search campaigns, and along came social and mobile and all of those kind of things. And then after 15 years in that, I got into the software business and ran a company called Gather Up, which focused on customer feedback and online reviews. Brought that company to a great place, and we were able to sell it and exit in 2019, just before that little pandemic thing. And that freed me up to the next thing I wanted to get in trouble with, and that was starting a tool focused on conversion and text messaging. And that leads us to today In Lead.


[00:01:37.010] – Robert Newman

And for anybody that might be tuning into the show, either a recurring visitor or somebody who’s brand new. John, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?


[00:01:47.810] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah. Thanks, Rob. I’m the joint founder of Mail Right. We build beautiful websites on WordPress. Plus we offer a suite of marketing digital tools that gathers and gets you more leads.


[00:02:01.180] – Robert Newman

Back over to you, Rob, and your field of host here is Robert Newman. I am the founder of Inbound REM and arguably the most experienced real estate marketing SEO consultant that’s working in this space today. So without any further ado, let’s get into a conversation with Aaron. And so, first of all, I want to actually ask you a little bit about text messaging and real estate, because at the pre interview part, you acknowledge to me and John that your wife was a real estate agent of 15 years. So I’m not sure if she still is or was previously, but how do you think the text messaging is impacting real estate digital marketing?


[00:02:50.230] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, so she retired a handful of years back. My schedule, four kids, everything else. And as you guys know, the schedule of a real estate agent, those things didn’t line up very well after a while. So to keep sanity, she sunset that after a very, very successful career. She kicked my butt in the earnings place for many years as an entrepreneur and was fabulous at it. And I always say I modeled myself an entrepreneur or real estate assistant. Right. If you’re married to an agent. I always call it my wife’s name is Marcy. I called it driving, Miss Marcy where I’m driving. She’s on her phone, talking emailing, sending stuff, jumping out, putting in yard signs, hanging sold signs, the whole gamut. You live and breathe that industry when it’s a part of the career of your partner in life. So, yeah, within that, one thing I can say is texting has been very early into the real estate field because realtors have been using that as their primary communication. Their best days are not behind a desk. They’re out on the move and talking with clients and getting things done and meeting with people and everything else.


[00:04:04.260] – Aaron Weiche

And they made that traverse from a personal channel to a business channel extremely early. And consumers, I think, really wanted it too, because that real estate purchase is one of the biggest, most stressful purchases for most people in their life. So they want that communication, they want that personal relationship with their agent. And so they were very quick and fast to adopt that. The area where I see that it’s really kind of grown is how you can keep that connection going and the different things that can be done kind of prerelationship and even post relationship with texting. And that’s where I think things have really evolved. So as we’ll get into and probably talk about as we’re focused on conversion, we really see this. Like, what better than be able to ask a question over text, right, from a real estate website, right from a listing page, right from a digital piece of content that they have out there and be able to ask initial questions, something that might be really detailed, really quirky. You’re just trying to get a feel for how they communicate, if they’re the right fit for you with an agent and things like that.


[00:05:13.560] – Aaron Weiche

That’s definitely one area and then the other, just being a way to stay in touch with your customers down the road and find out how things are still going, when they ever might be in the market to make a move again. You probably have notes on maybe what their dream property might be. So when you come across a new listing or something new you want to do, you want a great way to reach back out and be like, hey, I have something I think you might want to see or know about. So those are really the two ways that I see it, pre process and post transaction, and process being a really great tool to land new customers and to keep repeat business coming your way.


[00:05:55.410] – Robert Newman

I’ve made a ton of notes, but before I dive into any of that John yeah, sure.


[00:06:03.880] – Jonathan Denwood

Thanks, Rob. Aaron, I don’t know if you agree what I’m just going to outline. I think there was a lot of interest, but also I think it was in some ways overplayed about when somebody goes on a website, they would be engaged in conversation messenger, facebook messenger, that you’d be able to almost automate the onboarding of new clients. And then it would be almost all kind of automated. And there seemed to be a kind of message that the agent would be almost excluded. The personal communication element, first of all, would you agree with that? And secondly, how do you see your particular product and service helping agent? But not if you agree what I’ve just outlined. How do you avoid some of the miscommunication?


[00:07:23.070] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, there’s definitely some good points in there. I think one thing, right, any of us that are a business owner, we run a business like time is the commodity, right? So we’re always interested in tools that can bring efficiency or even things that can be doing the work for us, right? The magic elves making shoes for us at night, leads being landed and matured and brought to the table with knowing all the details and everything else behind it. But interestingly enough, when we flip over to the consumer side, as consumers, we actually want the opposite of that. We actually want a personal relationship, we want personal touch. So what we’ve looked to do is kind of blend that. So to one extent, right, we’ve had years now of the promises of what Chat bots can do and automated processes. Obviously we’ve had some new developments with Chat GPT and some of the other AI things coming out there that are definitely taking a step forward. But I’ve still yet to engage and I’ve engaged with many chats as a consumer and then also in just doing research, always looking at conversion elements and I’m still yet to have any type of a wild feeling, right?


[00:08:30.610] – Aaron Weiche

A lot of them I think, are there to placate the user and hey, where can we send you? Where there’s already content on the site or how can we just gather information about you? It’s not actually maturing a relationship, it’s not building trust and it’s not creating a personal one to one connection, especially in an industry like real estate where that’s what you want to have. You want to have trust with your agent. You want to feel great about their skill set and what they’re able to do and how well they understand your needs. So I think from that standpoint, it’s a lot of like hollow promise and we see a lot of people making the move, they’ve tried it and they’re going away from it because they couldn’t manage it the right way. It was difficult and tricky and so when they look at a solution like ours that offers business text messaging, they already understand how to text because they do that in their personal life, right? It’s for most people the top app that they use on their phone. And now you give them some of that promise of efficiency and a better working process because you have an app that automatically does replies to new leads.


[00:09:29.150] – Aaron Weiche

So it’s not trying to have a conversation, it’s just saying, hey, thanks for contacting us. We’re currently with a customer and we’re going to text you back as soon as we’re free and we’re glad you’re here. Here’s a link to view some of our listings or if you’re looking to sell, here’s some information on some of the things that we do. And then that agent is able to pick up the conversation and personalize it and take it from there. You also can have saved message templates, so you already have questions, answers, links to things pre saved, so you can call those up in just a couple of taps. So instead of having to type out an email, point them in a direction, answer a question, ask a question. You already have that built out. Maybe you need to edit it just a little bit. But you already have hundreds of characters typed out and you can send it within a matter of 2 seconds instead of two minutes to type all of that out. So we’re really still focused. We want to make that human connection happen. We want to make it pleasurable for both sides, efficient for both sides, and make people feel like they’re really being taken care of in the personal channel that texting is, instead of a robot is trying to help me jump through these hoops and collect all my information as just a kind of a glorified lead form.


[00:10:36.600] – Aaron Weiche

So that’s how we see that a little bit different. Can those things change and will they possibly take more steps forward? Yes, but still, at the end of the day, and I’m sure every agent would agree, like, getting me in touch and giving me a line in that prospect is really going to be the best bet for me to show off my expertise, customize the experience for them and help them achieve the outcome that they’re looking for.


[00:11:00.610] – Jonathan Denwood

Frank Sarah, that’s a fantastic answer.


[00:11:06.210] – Robert Newman

So your skill and experience as an entrepreneur is really showing in this call because when we first set this interview up, I thought you were just another sequential text messaging sender, which I got to be honest, I am not a fan of, nor am I a fan of what I’m seeing. It due to the prospects inside the real estate space and just for those people listening, because Aaron’s smiling and he’s laughing, but you may not like if you’re listening to the show, you can’t see that. But for everybody listening to the show, there’s plenty of people out there, like using Wailopo type services where you sign somebody up for something and then you basically get entered into a behavioral sequence of text messages that get sent to you. If you trigger the right responses from the system, you can actually get as many as 30 of these messages in as little as one to four weeks. To me personally, as a guy that lives and breathes off his cell phone. Anybody that’s going to send me 30 messages, including the DNC and everybody else, I hate them. I flat out hate them. There is no other way to describe my feelings on the subject other than hate because I have to respond to my phone.


[00:12:22.860] – Robert Newman

Some of these guys I don’t quite feel comfortable blocking, but at the same time, they send me so many messages, I’m like, what are you thinking? So that’s not what you’re describing here. And I’m curious to know you’re laughing and you’re smiling. So just briefly, what do you think about those services that are doing behavioral or mass testing as part of a sales process?


[00:12:50.310] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, so this is like one of those areas where I definitely have a soapbox that I’ve stood on and continue to stand on with this. So, yeah, you’ve done a great job upon hitting that. So here’s the high level thing. I’ll frame this up again from both sides because number one, I just always believe in that software should be a win win for both the business and the customer, right. Not one sided because that’s ultimately not going to work. So when we look at it from the business side and this means no on a fence, but the simple phrase sums it up for me, a fool with a tool is still a fool. Right. And if you don’t have the right strategy and you’re not looking at this for the right way and the right reason, you’re going to do the wrong things with it. So businesses get a hold of, let’s just call it a text marketing or SMS marketing tool like this and they’re like, great, I can pound people with buy now, you need to work with me, do this, do that, everything else. And what they’re failing to realize is you have a connection to them by having their cell phone number.


[00:13:51.520] – Aaron Weiche

That is their most personal communication channel. And you’re willing to go through and burn that and get blocked because you have this automated series you want to put in front of them or you want to let them know about something. Right. Not in real estate, but in retail business. We see this with 10% off, 15% off, this sale, that sale, everything else. And so this could be a customer that if you nurtured them the right way and you had strategic one to one touch points and conversations you were smart about, could be an extremely valuable customer to you. But you’re going to trade that for burning them over being able to fire them off a bunch of messages and you convert 1% or 2% of that entire base that you’re sending out to. So that on the business side, I think is ridiculous. And then on the consumer side, all you’re doing is, if anything, you’re going to make them feel like, I felt good enough to give you my number and I thought I was going to get value out of this. And now you’ve completely sunk that value, right? You’ve made me feel like you’re only after sales.


[00:14:50.200] – Aaron Weiche

You’re only after to kind of hound me. It’s going too far now. And now I’m going to block you. So now even if you came to me with something great, the same, whatever else, I blocked your number because I was tired of receiving these and that was the easiest way for me to stop hearing about you. So I totally agree with you on these things. And businesses just have to be smart in treating their customers the same way they want to be treated as a consumer themselves. And if you follow that rule, you’ll likely avoid a lot of these pitfalls that are there. That being said, there are ways and the right ways to do some of these things with automation. But again, you really need to be smart about how the customer is going to receive it. And you need to think smart about not just getting that one sale you’re really after, but making this a lifetime customer, making this person a brand advocate that’s going to refer other people to me or write great online reviews for me. That’s your multi headed goal there, not to be able to fastly funnel them through a sales process and try to get them to buy now.


[00:15:50.350] – Robert Newman

So when we come back, we’re going to go to our break. Aaron, that was incredible. So incredible. I have some things I’d like to say and I am going to get on the soapbox for a second.


[00:16:00.610] – Aaron Weiche

We’ll rant away.


[00:16:02.290] – Robert Newman

Before I do, we’re going to go to our break. And when we come back, some of the reports that I am going to have is the idea of the centric idea for all real estate agents everywhere about how we need to start valuing our data differently. Okay. It’s so incredibly important that everybody do this. It’s actually in every service industry, not just real estate. But since John and I focus on real estate on this show, we’re just going to talk about real estate. But I cannot begin to explain to all never mind. I’m going to do it when we come back. All right. So without any further ado, we’re going to go to our break. We’re going to be back in what’s going to be about 2 seconds for you and we’re looking forward to it.


[00:16:51.170] – Speaker 3

Do you want quality leads from homeowners and buyers right in your own neighborhood? Then you need mail, right? It is a powerful but easy to use online marketing system that uses Facebook to generate real estate leads at a fraction of the cost you’d pay from our competition. We stand behind our work with a no question asked 30 day money back guarantee. So don’t delay. Get started today. Go to mail,


[00:17:16.170] – Robert Newman

Welcome back to the mail. Right, show. We’re at episode number 366. And for once, I don’t actually have to ask john, what the show number is, because those are magic numbers. Numbers divisible by three actually have placed in numerology. So this is going to be a lucky show for us and a lucky show for you, Aaron. I am convinced of it, John.


[00:17:37.250] – Jonathan Denwood

He has to be very lucky for me to die. Is it?


[00:17:40.360] – Robert Newman

You bunked your head before the show, which is true, everybody. And and now he’s got his little British cup in his hand. All right, so for those people, before we went to break, we were talking about aaron was kind enough to share his thoughts about sequential marketing, or text message marketing, and Mass, which is a marketing service that I strongly don’t advocate for. And here’s the reason why Aaron said it in his way. I would like to say it in my way, which is we are getting better and better. So for every guy out there like Aaron, there’s another guy out there that’s creating an app or a service or a piece of technology that’s screening your email, screening your phone screening. And when you get a message from somebody that you want to communicate to, text messaging is really great. And when you’re getting messages and lots of them on your phone, which you feel you’ve got to manage and nurture in a very concentrated way, there’s nothing that says irritating text messaging has become the new telemarketing, like where you’re getting these interruptive messages to you. I came from telemarketing. Aaron. I used to run some of the biggest call centers in the world.


[00:18:54.410] – Robert Newman

I have seen what happens to an industry when the industry ignores the consumer. We all think to ourselves, oh, I’ve got a million names, like, if you live in a big city and I can text all those people if I buy that data right? And 1% response rate is a lot of business, so let’s do that. What you don’t realize is that you are taking a very big audience, like 99% of them, and they’re becoming people that you can like, if you burn them enough, you’ll never get the chance to use that as a marketing tool again. They will simply block every message from anybody that they don’t know. And when that happens, the value, which is what I felt like you described, Aaron, and I do feel like you have a very incredibly valuable approach is going to be gone. We can’t use the tool responsibly if a whole bunch of other people have used it. So irresponsibly because, trust me, everybody, if you think that the federal government won’t eventually step in and start to create laws surrounding this, please do your homework and go back and look at what they’ve done with Telemarketing.


[00:20:07.560] – Robert Newman

Because it’s illegal for me to call you. It’s illegal. I can get sued and fined by the FTC if I call you on a mobile phone. Just most people don’t know it. They just don’t realize that that’s the rule. And text messaging is still in that gray area. So as real estate agents, when you get your customers information, when you get somebody who registered maybe through a low value paid advertising strategy and they landed on a landing page, you force them to register for your site. For the love of God, treat that number responsibly. Do not enter them into a 30 text message cycle if you can avoid it, maybe ask a question or two respectfully and then don’t text them again if they so if they don’t indicate interest. John is dying to add something to this. Thank you for not jumping in and interrupting me. I appreciate it. John, give it to us. Give it to us.


[00:21:13.330] – Jonathan Denwood

I think it really links a signaling, isn’t it? I think what the key is, and I’d be interesting to see if you agree with this, if you put the right message in front of the right customer at the right time. That’s what really effective marketing is about, isn’t it? You know, I must receive hundreds of cold email, but on the other hand, there’s been a couple of subcontractors, that a couple of them still with me almost six, seven years. And the truth is, they contacted me through cold email, but they just done it. It was the right email at the right time, so it worked. And I think that’s what you and Robert just spewing out stuff and hoping it will stick isn’t probably going to work in 203, in the coming years, but sending the right message to the right person. So I suppose it’s really having a website or a system that provides enough signals so then you can send the right message out. Am I roughly on the right track there, Aaron?


[00:22:38.230] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, absolutely. It’s why we’ve really focused on the qualities of using text as an inbound tool for the business, right? Not an outbound, not a blast, but how do we procure more one to one conversations? And it’s why we place these floating buttons that are always visible on the site, on the screen. It’s on your about pages, it’s on your listing pages. If you have an IDX solution and you’re able to configure these buttons to say, like, have a question, we’re just a text away and it maybe has your review rating on there, any other type of social proof. But the combination of the elements in our buttons are really to convert you, as we call it, from being a lurker on the website to being a lead. And so the main point of that is having that right message of we’re approachable and we offer multiple ways to contact us, because you can also connect our buttons into click the call or email us or fill out a request form. But we see by far and away people want to text. It’s the lowest barrier to entry to start asking small, specific questions that don’t get you anywhere more committed in the process until you’ve built your trust up high enough so that right message at the right time.


[00:23:49.450] – Aaron Weiche

The right message is showing you’re approachable, you’re trusted, you’re easy to work with, you have the channels that they want to communicate with you. And the right time is those buttons are always there on the screen, right? In building hundreds of websites over the years, I can’t believe how bad people mess up with just placing easy call to actions for the customer. There so many small business websites, the only call to action is just a contact link in their navigation. It’s such a waste of persuading or marketing to that customer to start a conversation with you. So, yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And tying it in full circle to what we’re ranting about, instead of always looking at how do I do a one to many conversation that businesses think is so great and interested in how do I just crush up my one to ones? And how do I build that funnel right, so that I’m getting these one to one conversations? And as you guys hit upon, I’ve listened to some of your episodes, you were just talking about conversion and landing pages. Like you should be moving traffic from all these borrowed channels and all the other things out there into a property that you own right into your digital assets.


[00:24:54.900] – Aaron Weiche

And then once you get them there, you need to have the right tools to convert them, right? Getting them there is half the battle and for a lot of people trying to double or triple or quadruple your web traffic is very expensive, takes time, there’s a lot that goes into that. And so you need to make sure you are milking every ounce out of that traffic. You are driving to your digital properties and being easy to talk to, being easy to work with and putting that front and center is exactly how you want to do that.


[00:25:21.350] – Robert Newman

For the record, I agree with this. And I do think on my notes, I did put something down that I thought was kind of interesting, which is a text me now format, which I have actually not tried. Oddly, as a call to action on Inbound REM’s products. I’m you 20 years ago, I have a company, I do a few different things, but one of my inbound REM, the company that I am most well known for is that company still builds real estate website, still has these calls to action on it. I’ve noticed that what we are seeing a drift towards is people wanting to do more. Like let’s calendar a call. The same way that I schedule appointments with my prospects, like here’s calendar link, let’s do a call. People are actually more inclined to go through a longer process. I don’t have to email you, I’m going to schedule a call. But an interesting idea somewhere in the middle is text messaging. John and I have talked ad nauseam about chat bots. He’s for them. I’ve never had any good experience with him.


[00:26:26.970] – Jonathan Denwood

He has well, most of my leads run two businesses, Aaron. And I was saying to Rob, while the business, almost 90% of the lead come through a chat, but I answer all of them if not one of my team is available. We make it clear that you’re not going to get a reply if you put a question in at 03:00, a.m. Pacific Standard Time, because there’s none of us around, so we make it clear. But when they do put a question in, they get a reply from me or another member of my team. It’s a person. In other words, it’s not a list of unsuitable questions that we’ve all been there, haven’t we? I was going to say my question. The other thing I’ve noticed, which is really important, is people are pre screening themselves before they even contacted you. They’re reading all the pages on the website, they’re reading the competitors websites. And I think they do that with real estate agents. They get some recommendations, they go to the website to find out about the agent, they pre identify the one that they’re going to do the initial outreach, and it’s up to that real estate agent to either get that first meeting or not.


[00:28:05.370] – Jonathan Denwood

And I don’t think there’s a lot of people in the industry that understand the clients are screening a lot more before they approach. What do you think about that, Aaron?


[00:28:17.310] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, I mean, I’m of the opinion that you have to use every advantage you can, and content, I think, is one of the biggest weapons. I have been an inbound marketer my entire time. I’m building my second SaaS company without ever running a paid ad. I am not a paid acquisition guy. I am a write content, educate people, be there with answers and help build them up so that when they learn and they fully understand it, they’re going to go right to the person who helped them learn. Now, the real estate process is so important, and again, we’ve already talked about the trust with it that you absolutely need to be showing how you’re unique. What is it about your personal side, how well you know the area if you’re in a bigger city, how well you know specific neighborhoods and things like that. You need to find the unique content angles to really have yourself show up and be out there. Because, let’s face it, there’s enough tools out there where there can be thousands of real estate agent sites that all look the same. Some of them even use the same stock photography.


[00:29:20.110] – Aaron Weiche

So you need to personalize it and you need to show that for yourself. I’m also amazed. I was always thrown off and it wasn’t even as much when my wife got into it. But there are so many real estate sites that come up in searches ahead of that. Realtor is their own site. Right. And they haven’t completed the profiles on any of them. Those profiles aren’t linking to the site they currently own. They’re jumping domains every time they change a website provider. You just have this host of things where it’s like you need to be updating any possible inroad with the exact reflection of who you are and when they come to your site, not only should you have tools to understand what they do and everything else, but what’s your unique local knowledge? What do you bring to the relationship? Who are you as a person, family person, everything else that will make them identify with you? Right. It’s amazing to me. My wife was she was into triathlons. We had four kids, like all these things, right. And a customer would just say like, oh, when I read this about you, that’s what made me want to work with you.


[00:30:18.790] – Aaron Weiche

I knew that you were the right person for me. So it’s not going to land you every lead, but you’re absolutely right. When we have so much content and so many things on demand, you have to put out what your unique advantage is and market that and allow them to take it in and make a decision.


[00:30:35.530] – Robert Newman

Great. Sorry guys, I’m guessing you can hear me because I’m sorry, John’s, expression change. Okay. But my screen froze again. We would like to keep you on for an additional five, maybe ten minutes, but I have kind of a curveball question because you’re speaking my language. If John will allow me the I.


[00:30:57.440] – Aaron Weiche

Would be go ahead.


[00:30:59.410] – Robert Newman

I would just like to ask you one broad question that isn’t specific to Lead Inferno, isn’t specific to me and isn’t specific to John. I am curious if we could use the bonus section to talk about what your vision for digital marketing in general is going to be for the next year or two as we enter into a changing economic environment. Would you mind kind of just free riffing and sharing your thoughts? Sure.


[00:31:27.840] – Aaron Weiche

I don’t know where that stream of consciousness will go, but let’s put it together.


[00:31:32.210] – Robert Newman

Okay, hold on. So John, do we want to separate out the show and do yeah, the.


[00:31:37.090] – Jonathan Denwood

Podcast and we go on to buy this so I can watch on the YouTube channel.


[00:31:42.670] – Robert Newman

Okay, so for everybody listening to the show, we’re going to move the last ten minutes to the show. We’re going to get Aaron’s thoughts on this very broad topic and we’re going to put it on the mail hyphen, right? YouTube channel and maybe the inbound REM YouTube channel as well. So either one of those places you can check it out. In the meantime, Aaron, if you would like somebody to find you or your incredible company, how would you like them to do that?


[00:32:09.420] – Aaron Weiche

Yeah, head to Lead for no. Probably one of your best moves, as I hinted at, we write a ton, so click on our blog. There’s 50 plus articles. We’ve done surveys you can understand, data on how people view response times, where people are spending their time, why they like text messaging, all those kinds of things, getting to know our features. So that’s the best place. And still, currently, as of us recording this, I haven’t jumped the Elon ship. I’m very active on Twitter, so ask Aaron Wiki on Twitter. Happy to engage, respond to questions and everything else there. Beautiful.


[00:32:44.340] – Robert Newman

All right, so, John, how would you like people to find you?


[00:32:47.500] – Jonathan Denwood

I’ll just go to the mail right? Website. You can book a chat with me or my co founder Adam, and we’ll be more than happy to try and help you out. Back over to you.


[00:32:58.250] – Robert Newman

Rob and is my handle. Most of you already know that you can start on the about page or the Home page. Either way, you will find a very long video explaining who I am and what my position inside the real estate marketing space is. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast. We deeply appreciate it. We hope that you’ll come back and give us another listen. We’ll catch you the next time.



The Hosts of The Mail-Right Show

Jonathan Denwood & Robert Newman


Robert Newman




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#365 Mail-Right Show: We Interview Scott Agnew CEO and Operating Partner at Keller Williams

Monday, December 12th, 2022

What Are The Leadership Skills Needed In a Difficult Market?

Scott Agnew has dedicated his life to helping leaders discover their most significant potential inside themselves.

His passion is leveraging personal leadership dynamics to make a positive impact on the people around him.

The owner of multiple businesses, including several Keller Williams real estate market centers, Scott consistently ranks in the top 1⁄4 of 1% of profit share earners in Keller Williams Realty International.

Scott is a founding member of MAPS Coaching and was a key advisor in the deployment of the Recruit Select Training Learning Mastery into the KW system. And the author of Long-Term Leader: The Hidden Secrets of the Power of Soft Skills to Go From CEO To Successful Business Owner.


Full Interview Transcript

[00:00:11.290] – Robert Newman

Welcome back to the mail. Right, Podcast? Ladies and gentlemen, today we’re extraordinarily excited. We have an incredible guest this afternoon, so I’m going just to read the title of this guest. It’s Scott Agnew, who is the CEO and operating partner at Keller Williams Realty, east Valley, Tempe, Arizona Park City, Utah, and KW, Utah region leadership and motivational training agent, business coaching, and life advancement. And the man has a list of achievements in a warm longer than my arm. So if you want to highlight any of those, Scott, feel free to do so. But that was my introduction, so why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself to the audience?


[00:00:51.070] – Scott Agnew

Well, sure, I appreciate that, and I’m glad I’m able to talk with you guys a little bit about myself. I don’t talk about myself very often, so it’s kind of almost a little bit uncomfortable at times. But I’ll tell you what; I guess if you could summarize it, nobody, especially myself, would ever have believed I would accomplish what I’ve accomplished. But I owe it a lot. I owe so much of it to the amazing leadership that I’ve been able to learn from over the years with people like Gary Keller, of course, mo Anderson, a guy named Robert Kalinsky, bob Kalinsky, a good friend, David Osborne, Linda and Jim McKissick, Beverly Steiner. I mean, there’s just a long litany of people that have helped contribute to the overall success of this company, and I’m pretty honored to be part of it.


[00:01:45.490] – Robert Newman

Beautiful. And John, for anybody that might not already know who you are, would you introduce yourself to the audience?


[00:01:51.710] – Scott Agnew



[00:01:52.060] – Jonathan Denwood

Thanks, Rob. I’m the co-founder of Mailhyphen Right. We build beautiful real estate websites on WordPress, and we have a suite of marketing tools that will help the agent get some great digital deeds back over to you, Rob.


[00:02:09.610] – Robert Newman

And honestly, I don’t usually actually introduce myself, but Scott, I don’t think you know who I am, so I will tell introduce myself to you as opposed to the audience. So I’m an SEO guy who’s been specializing in residential real estate for 14 years and as far as I know, I might very well be the most experienced real estate residential SEO consultant founder that exists. I have a marketing company that I founded called You can see it right behind me. And I educate agents, lots of them, tons of them, but for free. I do inbound marketing style content where I give them the free digital tips and advice that they need to rank and Google my business, change their mindset as it relates to inbound marketing and real estate and a whole bevy of other things. So that’s who I am. Without any further ado, ladies and gentlemen, for the first part of the show, we are really excited to talk to Scott because Scott, after all these years in real estate, you decided, I’m guessing that you decided to put your knowledge down in book form. And you wrote a book called The Top Ten Mistakes That Prevent You From Being a Long Term Leader.


[00:03:21.710] – Robert Newman

Before you tell us about the book itself, might you tell us why, after all these years, you decided to write? And especially a guy who just self identified, you don’t like to promote yourself or you don’t like talking about yourself, so why write a book?


[00:03:37.940] – Scott Agnew

Sure. Well, it was during the pandemic and I didn’t have anything else to do because I was grounded, I couldn’t travel. So just by virtue of having extra time on my hands, I joined a group of entrepreneurs. And I found one thing in common between all these amazing, successful, what I call fulfilled entrepreneurs in a network that I joined called Genius Network. And I saw so many human beings that were not thinking about their own profits or their own success or their own fulfillment, but rather they’re more focused on what they can do to help other people achieve what they’ve achieved and kind of what’s in it for them type of attitude. In fact, the founder of the network just wrote a book and I’m going to promote it because it’s an incredible book. It’s called? What’s in it for them? You’ve heard of the book called how to Win Friends and Influence People? Well, this book is about how to win the right friends and influence the right people. And based on some of what I’ve learned from the gentleman Joe Polish that wrote that book, I decided and I was inspired to write my own book.


[00:04:56.370] – Scott Agnew

And the main theme around leadership, I wanted to take a much different approach. That approach was more about how to interact as a long term leader in the moment, rather than focusing on all the hard skills, the tools, the objectives, the plans and all those kinds of things. One of the things I have learned over the years, almost a plan almost never gets executed the way you write the plan. And so you’re always pivoting, you’re always making adjustments. You might even scrap a strategy and have to go back to your team and say, we’re not going to do that. And so long term leadership is about how you do that so that your team doesn’t put a noose around your neck or walk out the room. Right, right. Those are some key elements of being in the game for the long term.


[00:05:54.830] – Robert Newman

So that leads me to another question, and then I’m going to hand one over to John. I’m curious. You are a man that appears to be, from everything I can see, at the high side of your career. So you are also talking about having joined a networking group while you’re at the top of that mountain and saying, I’m going to join a group of like minded individuals. How important has, like, mentorship been throughout the entirety of your you’ve now twice mentioned it in the first part and now here. So how important has mentorship been to you inside your career, would you say?


[00:06:36.910] – Scott Agnew

It’s been incredibly important. It’s probably been the main contributor to helping me keep my head on straight, stay focused, and more importantly, help me get in touch with the things that I really want and help me get in touch with the human being that I want to be. When I was my father passed away when I was eight years old. The book says I was ten, but the truth is, it’s eight, okay? And I grew up without somebody to kick me in the butt, somebody to hold me accountable, somebody to challenge me, somebody to, you know, what dads do? I didn’t really have that. But I had many figures in my life that filled that role for me and starting all the way back to Little League. And Mr. Frigy, who was my first coach, and then in high school after that, mr. Fulton, who was my basketball coach. And these gentlemen helped shape my work ethic and helped me understand what was, you know you know, there were times when I thought I was, you know, a four on a scale of one to ten, and they would say, no, Agnew, you’re an eight or a nine, you know?


[00:07:45.110] – Scott Agnew

And they they helped me be more realistic about my, you know, what I was actually achieving, because I never really felt like I was good enough. That’s part of the reason I think people become entrepreneurs. They’ve got something inside them that they need to prove. And so mentorship has played a huge role in helping me get comfortable with who I am. It helped me write the book. I mean, that’s crazy, right? Writing a book on leadership? There’s been thousands of books written about leadership, and yet I wanted to write something that I thought was different about the how of leadership, not the what. And so the soft skills, I think, were incredibly important to me because I was taught by mentors. I was given a lot of mentorship. Dr. Jack Vandewowda helped me, and of course, one of the premier people that helped me was Gary Keller. He’s the guy that taught me how to not write scathing emails to people.


[00:08:48.250] – Robert Newman

Hey, you need to teach John that. No, I’m just kidding. I’m just joking. I’m totally everybody, that was a total joke. All right, John, take it away, sir.


[00:08:58.900] – Jonathan Denwood

I’m so hurt, Robert. I really am so hurt. It’s been a rough year. You just finished it off so well.


[00:09:07.780] – Scott Agnew



[00:09:08.680] – Jonathan Denwood

There we go. Scott, from all the things that you probably cover in the book, what would be one that comes straight into your mind here and now that you would like somebody to learn from the book, read after reading it?


[00:09:25.890] – Scott Agnew

Yeah, well, I think the message of the book is very basic, it’s very simple, and that is, how do you increase your potency as a leader? And what I mean by potency is when you make a suggestion or when you give some guidance or when you offer some perspective. How do you get your people in a place where they’re anxious to hear what you have to say as a leader? I had a wonderful coach many years ago who taught me this, and it made sense to me. He said, in most accountability sessions or reviews or quarterly summaries, when you’re having those kinds of meetings with your team, and in my case, leadership team, because everybody that reports to me, they’re all leaders in their own right. He says he’s told me, he said 99% of the time, those meetings leave people feeling worse than when they came into the meeting. And it made sense to me because yes. And why did it feel worse? A lot of times you feel worse because you just feel like you’re not doing enough. And that’s when you go home and you start kicking the dog and your kids aren’t good enough and your wife isn’t supporting you enough, because you’ve just come out of this interaction that you feel like, gosh, there’s so much more that I can do.


[00:10:49.070] – Scott Agnew

And what it does, it creates anxiety and it creates stress. And as a leader, it’s important not to have that kind of anxiety and not to have that stress. It’s certainly not to let that bleed into your interactions with your leaders because it flows downhill, right? Whatever you start, it will continue to pay itself forward. So it’s more about being inquisitive, and instead of being as a leader, being in a directive mode I’m going to use this word being a Requestive mode. One of the one of the superpowers of Gary Keller is all he does is ask great questions, and he’s there to learn. And as a leader, I’m there to learn. And what am I there to learn? I’m there to learn what my people are feeling, what their obstacles are, what their challenges are. And I’m also there to learn what their real victories are. What are they really proud of? They might be proud of something that isn’t part of my objective plan or their objective plan, but they’re proud of a win or they’re proud of how they move the ball forward. And it might seem small, but to them, it could be big enough to actually fulfill them and give them a motivation to really go out there and bust their tail at the end of the day because they realize that they’re cared for as human beings, not just for what they can accomplish.


[00:12:19.220] – Scott Agnew

And I think in business today, especially today, you’ve got a scenario where the typical younger leader, if you will, they’re more wired around the emotional and psychological side of the business than they are around the competitive side of the business. And so competition versus collaboration is something I talk about in the book. It’s a very interesting topic to me.


[00:12:51.190] – Jonathan Denwood

Well, it’s a bit of a balance, isn’t it, depending on personality, style, isn’t it? Some people, especially on the sales side, they are really driven by the competitive element in office or a scenario where other types, they can sometimes be just as effective in sales, but they’ve got a very different style and they don’t particularly like that competitive side. Would you agree with that, or do you think I’m off track?


[00:13:23.920] – Scott Agnew

Yeah. I mean, when you look at the top productive agents in real estate, they’re task driven. We call them taskers. They do one thing, they accomplish one thing. They take about 1 second to enjoy their accomplishment and they’re ready to accomplish the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And they achieve at a very high level. They’re the they’re the type of folks that, you know, they’re in the top two 3% and they do, you know, 50% of the business. And that’s just the way it is. I mean, that’s the way it is in sport, professional athletics. Unfortunately, it’s probably not that way in politics. We can’t even find a one or 2% in politics these days. But if you really look at the difference in how they’re motivated, that level of agent is motivated by challenge. They want to be challenged. They want to be called out on their imperfections. They just have super high expectations for themselves. They have high expectations for others around them. And my book is ideal for this kind of achiever because the challenge that those top one, two and three percenters have is that while they make a tremendous amount of cash flow revenue, they tend to suffer quite a bit.


[00:14:50.820] – Scott Agnew

And the suffering comes from having high turnover on their team. And so they’re constantly retraining. They’re rehiring and it feels to them, I think in many cases somewhat like a hamster wheel, right? The more they do, the more they’ve got to take care of everything. And they don’t have a sense of who they can bring into their business that could actually replace them so that they could still own a majority interest of the business and have a life. This is the kind of stuff I talk about in my book. Because anybody that has the will to build a big real estate business or any big business, the challenge they have is to be able to change their mindset and be able to enjoy it and be able to let other people have opportunities inside their business and then open the door for them to do it. And do it in a way where people trust each other and do it in a way where people get great results without a lot of friction or anxiety. Because after all, you can only go to so many restaurants. You can only buy so many pairs of shorts and have so many cars and so many homes and all that.


[00:16:05.410] – Scott Agnew

What’s left after that? After that is you want to have a life and you want to have something that you can enjoy. Maybe you want to have a family and enjoy your family. So that’s why leadership is so important, because it gives you great leverage over your business.


[00:16:24.110] – Jonathan Denwood

That’s fantastic.


[00:16:26.730] – Robert Newman

Well, ladies and gentlemen and Scott, we’re going to go for a break. When we come back, Scott, I’m going to give you an opportunity to talk about talking to the world at large. Our audience is 100% real estate professionals. So what would you want? The top three things that you’d want to point out to somebody about maybe the top three lesson deliverables you feel like your book might be able to help somebody with. Let’s call it that. What are the top three lessons that you might learn from your book? When we come back from break, I’m going to ask you to serve those up. And then if it’s okay with you, I’m going to ask some questions about Keller Williams.


[00:17:08.080] – Scott Agnew



[00:17:09.110] – Robert Newman

All right, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for staying tuned as always. Do us a favor, please, and give us a like wherever you’re watching this video, whether that be YouTube or your favorite podcasting service, we would really appreciate it. Leave us a comment. John and I always read them and always appreciate them. We will be right back.


[00:17:27.150] – Speaker 4

Do you want quality leads from homeowners and buyers right in your own neighborhood? Then you need mail, right? It is a powerful but easy to use online marketing system that uses Facebook to generate real estate leads at a fraction of the cost you’d pay from our competition. We stand behind our work with a no question asked, 30 day money back guarantee. So don’t delay. Get started. Today, go to


[00:17:52.150] – Robert Newman

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to the Mail Right podcast. John and I have done this well, not me, but we’ve done this 365 times in total, which is crazy. So it’s episode number 365. And today we’re here with Scott Agnew, who is many things. But what we’re talking about today in at least part is his book, the Top Ten Mistakes That Prevent You From Being a Long Term Leader. And then we’re going to spend a much smaller part of the podcast talking about what made him qualified to write the book in the first place, which is experiences at Keller Williams. So without any further ado, before we went to break, I said I asked the question of if you were talking to somebody who’s never read the book and maybe doesn’t even know who Scott Agnew is. What are the top three lesson type deliverables that you feel somebody might be able to pull from the book? Should they read it?


[00:18:41.430] – Scott Agnew

Well, there’s really just one message, right? And yes, there are some lessons in there, but the one message is really communicate. Communicate with your people. Most people think they’re great communicators. However, when you talk to a lot of people and you ask them, hey, do you think your boss gets you? Do you think your boss understands you? Or do you think your mom and dad understand you if they’re a teenager, right? Or when you ask that question on the other side, most people don’t feel heard. They don’t feel appreciated. They don’t feel understood. And in fact, many really powerful relationships between colleagues and even between people that end up getting married, one of the common things that you will hear is, will they get me? They understand me. They know where I’m coming from before I even speak. They finish my sentences for me because they’re honestly listening. And so that’s the real message, is when your people have that, when you have that relationship with your people and they know that you get them, then the walls come down. And when the walls come down, then you start learning what you need to learn as a leader.


[00:19:58.760] – Scott Agnew

You learn what’s going on in the front lines. I can’t tell you how many meetings that he was in as a young professional where we would all get after the meeting, we’d go, God, they don’t know what they’re doing. Upper management doesn’t know what’s going on. Gosh, they’d have no idea what it’s like out there on the streets and blah, blah, blah. And that’s because the model for leadership then was the leader got up and had to be the smartest guy in the room and pontificate for an hour about what everybody needed to do, what their objectives ought to be, what their plans ought to be, and how they ought to execute. Well, that doesn’t work anymore. If you really want a team to be bought in, part of the execution, part of the plan has to be from them, and it has to be well thought through. And most of the time, you see leaders make decisions, and they don’t even think about the unintended consequences of their decisions. And I would say that’s probably one of my superpowers, is, look at all the different angles. Put yourself in the other guy’s shoes when you’re talking to him.


[00:21:09.770] – Scott Agnew

What are their fears? What are their aspirations? As Jonathan say, what is their communication style? And put yourself in their shoes so that you can communicate on the same wavelength. And it’s like FM 101 versus FM 95. Get on the same frequency, and then your potency as a leader is so dramatically increased that it’s almost like you hit the beautiful notes instead of just singing loudly, if you will.


[00:21:41.810] – Robert Newman

Okay, that was beautiful. I have a follow up question, John, but before I do, do you have.


[00:21:48.930] – Jonathan Denwood

Anything that you no offer was a fantastic answer.


[00:21:53.300] – Robert Newman

Honestly, so do I. And the question that I have is, anytime somebody’s written a book and I’ve done the same, but I feel like there’s this long road that leads you up to a point where you feel like you have something to say that you’re going to put down in a book, right? It’s a long road. So I’m going to kind of try to touch a couple of what might be milestones upon that long road for you, which would be my questions would be, so you’re in charge of it or you’re a leader within this very large territory for Keller Williams. Do I understand that? Basically. So if you had to guess, how many people ostensibly are you responsible for leading or talking or coaching or whatever the right language is for that?


[00:22:48.630] – Scott Agnew

So that’s one of the mistakes leaders make, is they think they have to lead everybody, and really you don’t. What you’ve got to do is you’ve got to lead five to ten key people and then they lead everybody else. And so we have a saying, success through your best and brightest, right? Success through them. And those five to ten people might change over the years. You might have different people that come in and out of that. But that’s one of the things I’m very careful to do, and that is that I lead to what I call my span of influence, direct influence and direct potency. So I don’t try to lead everybody. I let my leaders there are people in Keller Williams in Utah that don’t know who I am. They might know my name, but they might not even associate with me at all. And that’s completely okay. My goal or my objective is not to know everybody and be the center of attention or be their hero. My goal is to make sure that I’m creating an environment where they can absolutely thrive. And if I get the right people in place and I give them the right support through direction, through effective questioning, through great consulting, through making sure they get the right training and have the right tools, if I support them, then I know they’ll go out and pay it forward into their environment.


[00:24:19.630] – Scott Agnew

And so that’s how we’ve grown. We’re number one in Utah. We have number one market share, number one agent count, number one production level. And we are not a discount brokerage. We are a full service brokerage, which means that we are not the cheapest. That being said, I’m pretty proud of the fact that while we don’t go in cheaply, but we do go in with tremendous value, we kind of position ourselves in a way as the costco, if you will, brand name, great quality, but at a very competitive price. And so I’m pretty proud of that. When I started there, I took over a failing brokerage that had 21 agents. And today we have almost close to 1700 agents in Utah. And I didn’t do that by myself. I did that through getting in business with some amazing, incredible people. I could start naming names, but the problem is I’ll probably forget somebody. But they were incredible. Yeah, beautiful.


[00:25:29.850] – Robert Newman

I think that answers my question. And I appreciate it, but let me just make sure that I do understand how long ago was starting. You said the word start. So when I started, how long ago was that?


[00:25:45.820] – Scott Agnew

Well, it was actually in 2001. That was when I first went up there. And I didn’t really get a strong foothold until about 2002. Took me about a year of interviewing different I went to different vendors and my question was, who do you know that’s quite influential in real estate? And what happened was I would get the same name over and over again from different places. And so then I made appointments with those people. And I remember the first meeting I had with one of my most successful legendary leaders in Utah of all time. Her name is Lee Stern. Anybody in real estate in Utah knows that name. And I was fortunate enough to have an appointment with her. And she sat down with me and she says, okay sonny, you got ten minutes. What do you got? And 3 hours later, right when our discussion finally ended, I made some promises and commitments to her. And I think if you would talk to her today, I think she would say that I lived up to every one of those promises and commitments, which was kind of tough at the time because at the time I promised being the entrepreneur that I am, right?


[00:27:09.120] – Scott Agnew

I wasn’t even sure I could deliver on a couple of things that I promised. But I got in over my skis a little bit and I had to come up with some money and capital that I didn’t really have, all those kinds of things. I would just say that anything of great significance, the only way you’re going to accomplish it is if you find a way to get with and be part of other people’s vision too, and buy into what they want. And so often our visions are so aligned anyway, so it doesn’t have to come from the leader. I don’t have to be the smartest guy in the room, and I’m certainly not and I don’t want to be. I’d much rather be surrounded by people that are just excited and committed. Sometimes it’s for a cause. I mean, in Lee’s case, she was an absolute advocate for the welfare of her real estate agents. She thought of them as her family, like her kids almost. And she wanted to do everything she possibly could to set the stage for them to be successful and fulfilled. And that’s my kind of person. And not only did she have that rhetoric or that talk, but she had a track record to demonstrate that that’s what she actually could accomplish.


[00:28:27.800] – Scott Agnew

And so to this day, I’m just so blessed that Lee and I were able to find each other and do what we did.


[00:28:38.230] – Robert Newman

Holy cow. That is the kind of gold that I look for when we do these podcasts and I deeply appreciate it. I’ve only got 14 years behind me in the industry, but I have had the chance to work with legendary names like Joyce Ray and people like that. And so you become part of the fabric, like the story of the industry that you’re within. Jeffrey Highland, who is unfortunately past people, you meet them, and I have always found that once you meet them, who they are is not ever who you thought they were going to be. Like, nobody ever prepared me for the fact that Jeffrey Highland was literally probably one of the smartest, most well educated building historians and architectural historians that to my knowledge, has ever worked in the real estate industry. I’ve never met anybody with the depth and breadth of knowledge that he had. So when you meet with him, you’re thinking, oh, I’m going to meet with this extraordinary sales guy, right? That’s what you’ve got in your head, the founder of Hilton and island. Then you meet this guy who’s just like a professor of this thing, and you’re like, holy cow.


[00:29:54.760] – Robert Newman

That’s not what I was expecting. What you said about Lee Stern, I don’t know her, but I know her. But I know the repute, and I’ve never met her, never met her team. But I have heard through the grapevine, through Keller Williams. I’ve heard that name before. It doesn’t surprise me that she’d be like mama bear as it relates to her agents. Scott so John and I usually ask our guests if they I pushed off the questions I have about Keller Williams. He’s been providing so much great information. But I would love to do, if you’re willing. Ten minutes of a little bonus section and just I’m going to let John serve up the first question, which we talked about before the podcast, but I’d kind of like to key it up for the audience if you’re willing to give us the extra time to say we would like to ask your opinion about how Keller Williams is positioned, moving into the future, things like that. From more of a tech and marketing standpoint, which is what our show tends to be about. Is that okay with you?


[00:30:52.940] – Scott Agnew

Absolutely. Yeah. Wonderful.


[00:30:55.070] – Robert Newman

Okay. John, do you have anything? We’re going to go to the final break and move everybody over to the YouTube channel. Actually, you know what? Now I think about it. How would you like people to look you up? Like, if somebody wants to research you, want to research your book, Scott, how would you like them to do that?


[00:31:11.270] – Scott Agnew

The easiest way they can email me is Scott, and then I can get them a direct link to check out the book. Or if they don’t want to email me, they can just go on to Longterm Leader. Very easy to remember. So either way, Scott or longterm leader.


[00:31:31.140] – Jonathan Denwood

Actually, I haven’t done this before, actually, but I think Scott is such a fascinating we just extend the podcast. Show Robert for another ten. We just extend it.


[00:31:43.630] – Robert Newman

Okay, so we won’t do these at the outro yet. Beautiful. Great. So, John, if you wouldn’t mind, if you remember the question that we talked about prior to the show, why don’t you serve it up? Because you are a little bit more graceful than I am, which literally is a rarity. Usually it’s opposite, but in this case, so everybody knows I kind of got shut down and John kind of got the green light, so.


[00:32:09.770] – Scott Agnew

That’S okay.


[00:32:16.730] – Jonathan Denwood

So, Scott, what’s your fault? Were you surprised about what has happened to Zillow to Open Door and to some extent Redfin? They all to some extent, went into wholesaling. It seemed to be what they thought was going to be, especially with redfin going to be the future, that there was going to be a hybrid wholesaling landscape that was going to be the driver of their growth. Also Zillow obviously open door. That is their business model. But to all extent, to say that it hasn’t worked out, was you surprised or did you have a feeling that this was going to be the outcome when the market became more of more realistic? Put it that way. Shall I?


[00:33:22.670] – Scott Agnew

Well, I’m not going to sit here and pretend like, oh, yeah, I knew that it was going to fail. But I will tell you, every year as we kept looking at analyze the financial, the financials of these companies, and they were losing millions of dollars. Gosh. Another one you didn’t mention is Compass. I mean, these guys have burned through $700 million. And basically the whole concept of trying to either displace or to go directly to the consumer without having a real estate agent involved is a very tenuous. I can see the aspiration because they see the dollars and the money. But as far as real estate itself, man, it’s an intimate business. When you buy and sell real estate, when you buy and sell property, when you invest, you want somebody you can call and talk to and you want to be able to trust that person. I mean, I don’t want to sound old school here because I totally believe that technology has its place. All of my clients look on Zillow for what their property is worth. Great, wonderful. I don’t have to send them the CMAs, and I don’t have to do all that stuff anymore.


[00:34:38.570] – Scott Agnew

But when it comes down to them wanting to buy or sell property, who do you think they call? They want to call somebody that knows what they’re talking about, that knows the pitfalls and the landmines and the unforeseen challenges and problems. And it’s a big decision whether you’re investing, whether you’re buying real estate for yourself, whether you’re in the commercial world. Everybody wants certainty. They want to know what landmines are around them that they either can avoid or walk away from. And that’s where professional real estate agents play such a vital role and all these companies that made the attempt to displace that, I think it was just a bad strategy overall, and it was certainly a case where it was profits over value in terms of the client experience. They poured tons of money into marketing where they had the we have a marketing company in Phoenix right now that’s taken the world by storm. They’re everywhere. And it turns out they have a 40% fallout rate in their transactions. They claim to have 11% of the market. They only have about four and a half percent because it’s all marketing. I had an agent the other day call me up and she goes, I’m going up against this big behemoth company.


[00:35:58.100] – Scott Agnew

What should I do? And I said, we’ll just tell them you do the same thing they do. You just don’t misrepresent yourself about it. And they don’t. And she walked away with the listing and was happy and got it sold and did a great job for the client. And the bird still chirped and the air was still clean. Everything was fine. And that’s exactly what we’re faced with Wall Street. A lot of big bucks behind these companies. The amount of venture capital that’s been poured into these companies is mind boggling. It’s because they see the profitability, they see the numbers. But to access those numbers, we believe very strongly that the way to access that is through professional real estate agents who are fiduciary, who wake up every morning with their clients best interest at heart, who are there to serve as servant leaders, not as salespeople, who educate first and help their clients make great decisions. That’s what we believe. And I think that for the long haul, I think that strategy is probably going to prove to be pretty solid. I don’t see it any other way.


[00:37:10.250] – Robert Newman

Copy you well, a small adjustment, and I am only regurgitating stuff that I’ve read, but I think you were actually overly generous in the amount of money that you said that was lost. I believe the number with compass alone is actually in the billions. But I appreciate, as another leader who is oftentimes speaking on platforms, it’s always better and wiser to just say the least possible thing. You can’t get yourself in trouble usually, so I get it. But I will put myself out there, not you, and I will say, I think the number is much higher than the one that you gave. So having said that, I think the only John kind of skipped the question. But that’s okay. We’re going to leave it alone. If John didn’t want to do it, then I’m going to lean in on his wisdom and say, we’re not going to do it. But I do want to ask one other question, which is a burning one from me. I’m asking you one Robert Newman question. I’m curious to know how you feel. Keller Williams is positioned against more, and maybe this is a marketing thing, but more digitally focused real estate brokerages such as Realty One, EXP.


[00:38:17.390] – Robert Newman

There has been a shift, a newer trend that is not compass, which is trying to do the same thing with a little bit better branding and a mobile app, in my opinion. So that’s what they were trying to do, right?


[00:38:28.210] – Scott Agnew



[00:38:28.840] – Robert Newman

You do have a couple of companies with new ideas out there that are trying to do things in a somewhat different way. And some of those ways are almost entirely digital. Virtual offices, virtual, virtual everything. I’m curious to know how you feel if you can say no, if you’re willing to weigh in and kind of say, how do you think is Keller Williams is positioned against these other digital companies and why?


[00:38:59.600] – Scott Agnew

Yeah, sure. Well, things have a way of finding an equilibrium. EXP came out, and their big thing was there was two things. Number one is we have one statewide brokerage, which means if you have a team, you can have identical marketing throughout the state. You don’t have to have different signs, work out a different offices and all that kind of stuff. That was a point of friction that they removed for the agent, which for the top agents, the people building teams and those kind of things. And that was really a good move, and we kind of missed that one a little bit. We were hearing it, but we weren’t really listening. We were hearing it, but we weren’t listening. So that was one thing that they did really well. They also came out with an opposite position on physical space. Right. Their position was, we don’t need to have offices. We don’t need to have physical space. You can work out of a rented executive office or whatever you want to do. And that seemed kind of sexy and appealing in the beginning, but you know how I say things have a way of creating equilibrium and coming back together.


[00:40:15.910] – Scott Agnew

I have a 20,000 square foot office building in East Valley. I have an 18,000 square foot office building in Park City, Utah, with three satellite offices up there, and we’re full. Agents like having an office space. They like being able to walk down the hall and ask another agent a question about a transaction or get some advice or pop into a training room or get on. Heck, if you just maybe you just want to have maybe at the end of the day, glass of wine with your fellow colleagues and you create a culture around agents being connected to each other. And that happens because it’s facilitated by somebody in that physical space who’s a leader, and that leader creates a tribe, and that tribe becomes strong. And that and and you have, you know, you have I have 60, 70, 80 agents in the same office. You think they’re a little smarter than every single agent out there thinking on their own, who are maybe they’re only texting back and forth. Or maybe the only time they get smart is when they’re in a Mastermind. What’s it like if you could basically have a mini Mastermind every day, right?


[00:41:36.020] – Scott Agnew

Because all you do is walk across the hall or meet somebody in your office, say, hey, let’s go to lunch. And I don’t think that’s the end all answer. I think you still have to have an amazing presence in the digital space, but it has to be physically enhanced. I believe that. I don’t believe it’s one or the other. I think it’s both. And you’ve seen Amazon. Apple isn’t virtual. Apple has stores. Amazon has stores. Now you’re going to see that trend, I think, go back to digital space with physical enhancement and that Keller Williams is positioned beautifully for that. We’ve got a technology platform called Command that had a little bit of a rocky start when it was launched, but we’ve been busting our tail for the last 18 months, and Gary Keller just flat came out and said, listen, we’re not even going to talk about Command until we’ve earned the right to. And he’s poured so many resources into this, and he has so many smart people working on it. We have two people, Matt Green and Chris Cox, who are just I mean, they have been dedicated to nothing but making Command completely stable, completely functional.


[00:42:53.680] – Scott Agnew

And at the upper end, there’s a small portion of upper end limitation, but for 98% of our agents, command is a beautiful platform and it can do everything they needed to do. So we’re excited about our digital future, for sure.


[00:43:10.030] – Robert Newman

Well, I will say this I’m a transparent person, so transparency, I raised some doubts at the beginning of the show, which I’m not going to go into, but I will say that I raised some doubts and I wanted to also say, contrary to that, to you. And while we’re live, I do think that in terms of what I’ve seen, because I have seen command and what I’ve seen, and that’s what people follow me for. Scott, you don’t know me, but I do deep dives into everybody’s platform on my website, like, use the platform and show it KVCore, which you guys used to use before you got Command, and just boomtown and sync and install the big platform. So I go deep down, I haven’t been able to do that online yet with Command, but I have seen it. And so I will say that in terms of the tools that are being provided by an actual brokerage, it is somewhat out ahead of everything else that I’ve seen. I haven’t seen anything similar coming out of Compass or any of the other big name brokerages. Keller Williams, not to my surprise, is the only brokerage that I know of for certain has invested the kind of time and resources that you’re alluding to.


[00:44:24.230] – Scott Agnew

Well, yeah, everybody else has thrown in the towel. They’ve all gone to contract technology. We’re the last one that has our own technology. I don’t say that every piece of technology is our own. I mean, what we’ve done, though, I think it was brilliant. And this was the pivot we made a couple of years ago with Command. Instead of trying to be the all inclusive, now we partner and we utilize all the best partnerships with companies like Sync and Boomtown, and now that’s integrated. And Command is like the central command center with all these companies that are very good in their niches. And we’re marrying those niches into the central hub of Command and then using the cloud and AI to help come out with better marketing strategies, better customer service follow up, better anticipation of what makes a house sell or how you can buy a house better. All these kinds of things are what the AI function of. Command is eventually going to give many really good insights to the agents. And with our consumer platform, the consumers are going to benefit from that also. And we’re not trying to be the only place you go, but we do want to be the place.


[00:45:51.160] – Scott Agnew

If you do go, you want to stay there. We provide this platform to our agents for a nominal fee every month, and it’s very powerful. So again think of costco. And not everybody wants to shop at Costco, right? I mean, that’s that’s not that’s they’re not the end all, be all, but I think you could say Costco is the number one distributor of blueberries and strawberries and bananas in the world, and that’s because they provide a great value, and there are many other things Costco is famous for. Gary Keller’s always had the strategy of bringing the most value he can at the lowest possible price that he can. But he won’t sacrifice value, he won’t sacrifice quality, but in many cases, he will sacrifice his own profit. If real estate agents out there knew Gary like I know Gary, I think, man, I think it’d be game over. He’s one of those guys like the guy you were talking about, who you met that was one of the wisest guys in the developing world. Yeah, that’s exactly my feeling around Gary I’ve ever met.


[00:47:18.430] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, I’ve listened to his Red book three times, and I forgot when he published that. But I still feel it has a great deal of value and relevance, even in 2022.


[00:47:35.570] – Scott Agnew

Yeah. The strategies are the same. The tactics are different. You no longer pop a cassette tape in and listen to it. Right. The tactics are now different, but the strategies have not changed. It’s staying connected with your clients. It’s working. You haven’t met turning them into Mets, turning them into advocates. That is a strategy that will be forever and ever. And where Keller Williams is starting to shine now is, in a higher level way, is the execution of those things. Because it’s one thing to have the theory, the strategy, but it’s another thing to have the tools and the expertise and the intelligence to execute and the discipline to execute. We’ve got so many programs that we can just plug and play with our agents now. So they’ve been vetted. We know it works. We know they’re going to waste a bunch of money because there’s so many programs out there. We’d like to kind of be like the place you go where you know that everything on the shelf is really quality.


[00:48:48.730] – Robert Newman

Well, Scott, I got to say, I have had the incredibly good fortune of meeting a couple of people that are close to Gary, and you are similar in all of them to that. I’d follow you into battlemen and I’ve seen that drip down from Gary to his people. I’ve seen Gary speak. I’ve been to Keller Williams reunions. But you know those sticks, he’s got 10,000 people trying to come up and say hi to him. So I’ve never met the man. I’ve seen the man, I’ve seen him speak, I’ve listened to his stuff, I’ve watched him on video. Same thing as John, but I’ve never met him. I have met a couple of people like you who have been close to him and they all say the same thing. Every single person says the same thing, which is a one of a kind leader, a one of a kind thinker, and he values his people like almost nobody does inside the real estate space.


[00:49:45.370] – Scott Agnew

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that and I think podcasts or shows like yours that help get the word out are fantastic and I appreciate the opportunity to be part of it today. I enjoy you guys a lot and thanks for giving me such great questions and giving me a little bit of a platform to pontificate a little bit, but I hope it didn’t come across that way.


[00:50:09.480] – Jonathan Denwood

Oh, no, not at all. Scott, you must come back. Hopefully you will come back in the new year because you’ve been a great guest. I’m sure Robert agrees.


[00:50:19.050] – Scott Agnew

Yeah, that would be nice.


[00:50:23.350] – Robert Newman

A lot of fun. John will tell you. Never mind. I do these things for these moments where somebody like, lights my fire and gets me really excited and you’ve done that. But let’s wrap the show up, gentlemen. So, John, if people would we skipped this part a little bit earlier. I’m going to circle back around to you, Scott. But John, if somebody would like to reach out to you or ask you any questions, ask you your feelings on this particular show, how would they do any of that?


[00:50:54.710] – Jonathan Denwood

Yeah, please leave us a review on iTunes or give us an email, Robert, or myself; it’s always great to hear from the listeners and viewers of this show. If there are any topics or anybody that you specifically want us to interview, suggest them. Both me and Robert would love that. And if you’re interested in Mail Wright and a chat with me or my co-founder Adam, go over to Mail Hyphen Wright, and you can book a demo or a chat with me, and we’ll be more than happy to help you.


[00:51:28.460] – Robert Newman

Over to you, Rob, actually, one more time, Scott, for how you’d like people to reach out to you should they want to converse with you about your book, maybe just about Keller Williams. I don’t know.


[00:51:39.710] – Scott Agnew

Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn, and you can find me on Facebook. You can find me in all those places. Just Scott Agnew realtor or Scott Agnew KW. Whatever. But if you want to email me directly, it’s, and I check my email 15 times a day. So I’ll get back to you, I promise, and send you a link to the book, a direct link if you want to do it that way. I’m on Amazon. Long-term leader. Scott Agnew on Amazon. Or you can go on the long term. Leader. There are a lot of ways you can access the book. It’s a fantastic read. I would hope that there was a book I read many, many years ago that I just kind of keep beside my desk and refer to it, even though I think I’ve got it memorized. And it’s a book called The Four Agreements, and it’s a very simple read. But whenever I’m communicating or getting it, and whenever I’m in a leadership challenge or the heat of the moment, I think back to that book, and I think back to how it helps me stay in this cool spot, this okay place.


[00:52:49.480] – Scott Agnew

Because leaders have a lot of pressure on them. They get pent up, and they have financial issues; they have cash flow issues. They might make tons of money, but they might have cash flow issues, they might have people issues, they might have vendor issues, they might have technical issues. They get hit with all these things. It’s hard to stay happy and go lucky and easygoing when you’ve got all these things shooting at you all the time. But my book is a book that I think would help. I probably should not have called it Long Term Leader and called it how to Keep Your Head on Straight because that’s really what it is.


[00:53:29.890] – Robert Newman

All right, if anybody would like to look me up, you can do My name is Robert Newman. If you’re wondering how a long-haired, hippie-looking dude manages to get into conversations with notable real estate types like Scott Agnew, you can find out all of that on Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. We deeply appreciate your listening and viewership, and we’ll see you on the next show.




The Hosts of The Mail-Right Show

Jonathan Denwood & Robert Newman



Robert Newman



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