#173 Mail-RIght Show With Special Guest Nick Calabro
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How Do You Successfully Incorporating Traditional & Digital Marketing into a Single Campaign?
Nick Calabro has been building websites, growing Facebook pages, and generating real estate leads since 2012 under my digital agency Calaboration.
In addition to building online presences and generating leads for real estate professionals like mortgage lenders, investors, and agents, we’ve worked on political campaigns, marketing for bars & restaurants, and more.
Jonathon: Welcome back folks to the Mail right show. This is episode 173. We got a great guest with us, Nick Calabro. Nick, would you like to quickly introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers?
Nick: Sure, yeah, of course. Thank you guys for having me very much. Excited to be here. So like you said, the name is Nick Calabro. I run a digital agency called Collaboration. We specialize in real estate professionals from investors, agents, lenders and stuff like that. We also do other businesses as well, but kind of real estate is what we like to focus on. And yeah, so we’re excited to talk about some of the tactics that we use. And a lead generating kind of tricks that we implement here at the company as well.
Jonathon: That`s great. And I got my great cohost, Robert Newman. Like to introduce yourself to the listeners and viewers Robert?
Robert: Oh Lord have mercy. They know who I am by now. I am Robert, hey everybody.
Jonathon: But they might be new Robert. Do not be rude to the podcast.
Robert: I would never be mean to the podcast. I just think they’re sick of hearing who I am. But that’s okay.
Nick: I really love. I admire how casual everyone is here. It’s like a, it’s a lovely environment that you guys created
Jonathon: Well he is not going to introduce himself so I will. Just list. My great cohost is Robert Newborn. He is the founder of inbound marketing, which offers a load of services, about SEO. Specifically targeted at the real estate market.
Robert: And I love that. I think we should introduce each other from now on.
Jonathon: I will let you introduce me Robert. I am only kidding. I am the founder of Mail right. And what is Mail right? Mail right is a sales product which basically means that it has a load of technology that gets you leads with an emphasis of using the power of Facebook. So in this episode we’re going to be discussing how you combine digital marketing and online marketing. With more traditional forms of marketing in a coherent strategy to get you in front of your target audience. And get leads that you’ll recline. So how are we going to start off this conversation, Nick, which are some of the fundamentals people don’t understand about merging these? Seem to be two very separate worlds. Don’t they Nick?
Nick: Sure. Yeah. So I guess one of the big things to kind of start off with is that we have a lot of clients who sometimes are like obsessed or romanticize over the idea of physical mailers. So they kind of, you know, we have some clients who have dropped thousands and thousands of dollars per month on mailers and stuff like this. And typically now, although it’s, you know, mailers have worked really, really well for a long time and they still do work.
So I never want to say I never want to crush anyone’s dreams. And say no, you’re wasting your money that way because they do work. But I think the strategy has changed a lot and this is what people don’t really pick up on. They just think that, oh, you know, we’re sending out a bunch of mailers, like these are going to work a lot better than Facebook ads. Because it’s something tangible and something that people can actually see.
And I think that it’s a little confusing when you’re thinking about what the actual value of these things are. Because not many people that I come across at least are doing mailers the right way. And actually tracking properly who is converting from which mailers, if they’re actually working effectively and if there are even being cost effective.
So the way that you can kind of combat that is I’ll come in and say, okay, if you’re dropping three grand a month on physical mailers and you’re hitting, say maybe 500 houses. That’s actually probably a lot more than you would be getting with that. That same budget, you’re going to be hitting exponentially more people. If you’re throwing Facebook ads and instagram ads and stuff out like that. You’re going to be hitting a lot more people and you’re able to track that a lot better.
So really the solution isn’t to just cut one off altogether. But the solution is to kind of merge them together in a way where you can kind of create one single campaign while using Facebook advertising. All those good things like, you know, Google advertising as well and whatnot, and mailers together. So when you’re able to put those together, you’re able to give the perception of a larger brand. And you’re able to kind of market yourself a lot better because people are seeing you in all these different areas.
So if they see a billboard of you and then a mailer and then a Facebook ad, you seem like this super professional company. Meanwhile you’re only being perceived that way in one little town for example. So your budget is still the same. You’re not spending a ton of money because you’re not going national or anything, but you seem really, really large within one small environment. Does that make sense so far?
Jonathon: Well what I think you are saying and I’ll see you if Robert agrees. Is you’re talking about on the presence on a local scale, you know, being having a strategy where the message is enforced. Cut consistently over different platforms. What do you reckon, Robert?
Robert: That sounds about right to me. I agree.
Jonathon: Now the problem with that Nick is that real estate agents tend to have very busy people. And they have a lot of pressures on them. So they tend to fixate on one thing that’s going to work and it’s going to work. Now, how do you deal with that? How do you build a strategy for an agent around say three fails in a month? Can you go through some of the things that you would set up for our agent to get, which is what they’re looking for in the end is quality leads on. So how do you build and what would you, what are the meet in this strategy basically Nick?
Nick: Yeah, yeah, and for sure. So first of all, kind of like the big thing that I try to tell all my agents is that we don’t try to go after leads in the first few months. So this actually kind of goes back to one of the approaches that we take care of collaboration is what I like to call a mayor marketing? Still kind of figuring out the kinks on like the actual terminology for that. But so here at Collaboration, we’re a little unique in that we have actually worked with politicians in the past and everything. We’ve worked on campaigns and stuff like that as well. So a lot of. So obviously campaign marketing for someone who’s running for a mayor or you know, state Senate, whatever, that whatever it might be, it’s totally different than if you’re looking for leads, right? If you’re running for office, you’re looking for votes and you’re looking for definitely omnipresent, you’re a public figure.
You want to be seen everywhere. Now the problem with that is that there is no really transaction there. You’re not generating lead; you’re just plastering your face all over everywhere you can. And then you just hope that on the day of the election people were actually coming in to vote for you based on that. So the way we actually use that in our real estate marketing is that you do want to be a public figure. So we market our real estate agents the same way that we’re marketing perhaps a mayor for example.
And what that does is that if you’re not looking for leads in the first month or two and you’re just kind of sharing quality video of you. You’re showing the past deals that you’re doing, you’re showing some of the clients that you’re working with. When you’re doing that really, really well and you’re actually making it entertaining and you’re kind of providing value and everything at that point, two months, three months down the line, up to even a year, exponentially growing.
You’re going to see that the leads coming in are not going to be the kind of poor leads that you’ve been getting. When you’re just pushing out ads with leave forms because you’re not going to just forcing. You’re not just intruding on someone’s Facebook feed saying, here’s a listing. Give me your information. Let me call you. It’s kind of you’re building that rapport over time and then after that, those leads that are coming in.
They’re not coming at you because they stumbled across your ad because you paid for it to see them, but they’re coming to you because they kind of trust you at this point. And it’s been months of them seeing your ads, your mailers, your billboards, for example, your radio ads like you said. And then at that point they’re coming to you because they’re essentially a fan, not just because you’re the option that popped up on their Facebook feed. And you know, they just figure, let me just give this guy my information.
Jonathon: I totally understand where you’re coming from, but how do you deal with you going to get. The agents going to say to you well. I love you Nick or you seem a very, you know, I love this strategy but I need leads like tomorrow, Nick. Now three months I’m going to have to wait for a year or maybe six months before some leads come in. You know and I’m going to be pulling down three grand a month. How do you do that? With what they are going to say to you Nick?
Nick: So firstly, firstly, it’s kind of a matter of just managing expectations. So if you are coming at it with the right strategy and you’re saying, okay, we’re going to see this for three months out. And then kind of go from there and see how it’s working out. That’s one approach. The other way is to just kind of balance it out. So there are ways to get leads now and there are ways to get leads a year down the line.. And you can invest in all that right now.
So if we have an ad budget of say we’re working with this $3,000 model, if you have an ad budget or $3,000 a month that can easily be split up into kind of the long tail strategy and the instant gratification strategy. So in that case, maybe we’re going to drop 1500 a month on purely transactional, you know, kind of pushing a lead generation ads. And then the other half of that budget can be spent on the long tail effect.
Nick: So that way you’re getting leads right away. You’re kind of making everyone happy. You’re bringing in revenue and everything. But you’re also building that platform that’s going to outlast the leads. That it’s always outlasting the kind of advertising lead generation model. The reason for this is that kind of the same thing. So I love talking about Zillow. The same exact thing works for Zillow. You can spend thousands. I mean, I have people that are spending like over $100,000 a year on Zillow.
It’s absolutely insane to me. Because I say to them, if you just took that money, you know, forget about generating any leads for like six months. If you took that money and invested in your own platform, you’re going to steal the leads from Zillow. Okay? They’re not; you’re not going to have to pay Zillow anymore. Every time you paid Zillow, you’re just giving them more fuel to then outrank you even more.
Nick: So it’s Kind of like your, it’s like a, you’re like self-sabotaging your whole platform, right? Because every time you pay them, they’re just kind of beating you out even more. So the strategy would then be to create your own, essentially your own Zillow is that we’re able to cut head of them, collect those leads for yourself, and then you don’t have to pay anyone because you’re the whole platform is yourself. And then that way you have a lasting strategy that even when you have no ad budget left, that platform is still built and that’s kind of working for you forever.
Jonathon: I see where you’re coming from, what do you reckon Robert? Got a question?
Robert: No, no, I mean this whole thing; you know the combination of social media marketing where you’re paying for direct marketing. It’s not an area that I considered myself to be an expert in the long term. The value proposition as you’re trying to have a conversation with a client about spending, let’s just call it 18 grand. And there’s no results. That is something I’m very used to doing. Because that’s all what SEO is all about. So I can, I feel like I have relevant experience in there. Like so I’m listening to what Nick was saying about that, but I definitely don’t have relevant experience in doing a mix of advertising when it, when half of that is, is Facebook direct marketing. So I don’t really have a lot.
Jonathon: My initial reaction when you were saying that Nick, because obviously in reality you wouldn`t say to an agent that spending a 100 or group of agents that spending 100,000 and say like cut it now. You would say is read over certain amount of mumps, reduce the budget and invest it gradually into an alternative platform. And you probably never will or maybe in 18 months’ time might get to a position where you’re not advertising at all on Zillow. But it’s going to take at least 18 months before you. But you can start today to build your own platform. Is that what you would probably say Nick?
Nick: Yeah, for sure. It’s so, I mean, I guess kind of the problem is that, I mean, so all real estate agents that I come across, they, everyone just wants kind of like we’re saying leads immediately. So first of all, if that’s the kind of mindset that we’re working with, typically we don’t even; we might not even pick up the client. Because essentially we’re just never going to make everyone happy. If we’re, you know, if one month we’re kind of dropping off a little bit, leads really aren’t coming through, then we’re not in, they’re not going to want to sign on again. We’re not going to kind of extend the contract, stuff like that. So kind of the whole model that we preach and everything is that long tail. And it works and we have the data that shows that after six months you’re going to be, you’re going to see even better results than you would have if you did the previous approach, which was maybe Facebook direct marketing or anything like that.
So that’s kind of, there’s a really kind of saying.
Robert: I do have a question.
Nick: Yeah, sure.
Robert: So you’re using very broad terms and I’m somewhat curious when you’re talking about long tail strategies and you’re talking about mixing up platforms like direct mail. Is there anything that I would, that I would personally tag as an inbound marketing here? Are you talk, are you coaching clients to do like really informative videos connected to some of these campaigns and an established value? Or you just telling them to go multi-platform and the results will be better?
Nick: No, I mean you’re pretty much there with the former. It’s really high quality, like kind of even training videos, stuff like that. It’s all about just making, I don’t know, like a little PDF of like top 10 things you need to know about selling your home, stuff like that. And then along with that it’s, you know, the Facebook video, YouTube, whatever it might be, like a podcast like this for example. And then when you’re doing that kind of consistently and really well then it’s a difference.
There’s a difference between building a fan and building a lead. And we want basically fans. Because at that point, like right now, like million dollar listing guys, Ryan’s or hot. Like he doesn’t have to be like, he has already built his platform so, so well, like everyone would love to work with him. Right?
So I’m basically saying that if you’re in small town USA, you want to be the Ryan’s or Hunt of small town USA. And then when you do that, when you’re doing that, right, it’s going to take time to get there. But you’re not looking for a lead today just to sell a house tomorrow. You’re looking for a fan today. So then they’ll list their house with you, like in a couple of when they’re trying to sell. And then when you kind of obviously it’s really, really long tail. So when you’re doing that really well though and you kind of capture everyone in the future and you’re essentially kind of like carpeting over the entire footprint of wherever you are.
Jonathon: I’m thinking we’re going to go for our break folks. When we come back, we’ll be interrogating Nick a little bit more about long tail. He is coping well folks. Rob, we will be back in a few moments.
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Jonathon: We are coming back. We’ve got the strong lights, we’ve got the water boot and I think probably Robert`s got a pair of pliers. I’m not sure.
Robert: No! I am on the peace and love team.
Nick: I love it. Great.
Jonathon: We’ve managed to go through the A-Z of marketing terms. In the first half of this conversation.
Nick: In fact we are a little all over the place here.
Jonathon: I think we gone through and I am responsible for it as well. But we’ve managed to go through every beloved marketing term that boxes like to send their way to their clients around. So you got a client and let’s say they got a thousand dollars a month. And they go and they have signed a contract with you for six months. They have given you six months of files at a thousand dollars a month. Can you give an outline? A. For $1,000, can you do anything for them? B. What would be the initial three things you would do in those six months with that $1,000? and C what kind of results can they expect?
Nick: Gotcha. Okay. So is these thousand dollars a month our retainer only or is that including ad budget?
Jonathon: Let`s say that’s including the ad budget as well. Sorry to disappoint you Nick. But it’s the reality.
Nick: So. Okay. So for something like that it’s a small amount of money. So with that I feel like we would have to split it up kind of linearly. Maybe do four. If we’re here for six months, maybe we do the first three months; I would want to get some instant gratification to the client immediately. That would include advertising. That would include really no SEO like no; you know, anything on their website, anything like that. We’re pretty much going to be pushing out ads and generating traffic and leads that way. So with that it would be simply we’re talking and I guess it would have to be like it was
Jonathon: Let`s stop here because we should have started this conversation. first of all, realistically, based on your experience, do you think you can do anything effectively with a client that’s got $6,000 to spend over six months? Or realistically, do they need to save up a bit more money? If they’d been realistic about this. Let`s start off first of all with that question?
Nick: Sure. So I think depending on where they are in their business, if they’re just starting $6,000 is not going to cut it. Save up some more money; build up the platform a little bit more on your own. And then try to outsource some stuff. Because essentially what we’re going to be doing isn’t even anything that special that you can’t do on your own. At least in the very first stages of your company. If you’re a very established agent and you kind of already have leads coming in and the money is not, I’m kind of like your whole life savings that you’re throwing on marketing and you kind of had that platform already and we have a lot more to work with. Because we have kind of tracking data on your website that we can leverage. We have a Facebook audience perhaps that we can leverage. That’s going to make it a lot easier to go after the target that we’re looking for. If your kind of already established and not going from nothing. We basically, we’ve worked with some agencies.
Jonathon: That’s fair enough. So this talk about what real estate agent can do to get leads that are at the stage where realistic, they’re going to have to do these themselves. They hire you Nick and your team. So if you were that agent trying to get in a position where they can hire somebody like your company. What are some of the things you would do to market yourself to get into that position?
Nick: Yeah, so it’s all about pretending like you’re a mayor. Like you’re running for office and how do you kind of create that public figure persona of yourself as a real estate agent.
Jonathon: I understand. So what are the specific you would do?
Nick: So building an audience would include things like leveraging your current network. Literally like, I want to see Facebook live videos like every day of just talking about, the town that you’re working primarily in, like your footprint. Like talk about the school systems. Talk about the government. They are perhaps telling us about the new developments that are happening. What’s the market like nowadays? Give us like market updates every week maybe. And these can all be like Facebook live videos. These could be like twitter videos, periscopes, whatever.
Jonathon: So stop there. The videos how long. So you, you ask him a quite a large commitment, but go for it. One video, a day. How long should that video be do you think, Nick?
Nick: I think if it’s even five minutes, that’s better than nothing. If it’s a live video, for example, if you’re doing like 15 minutes that solid. if you’re doing like a Vlog style thing, you know, make it like maybe 20 minutes at anywhere between like five and I guess 20 minute mark would be sufficient. Anything longer than that it’s going to be great. But you also don’t want to be no rattling off forever and kind of, you know, making it poor at the end. You want to make it kind of concise and valuable right away.
Jonathon: So I would suggest at the beginning it should be short. Reason to be short because you’re going to have to get yourself used to talking to an audience really. Aren`t you?
Nick: Perhaps. Yeah. This is, yeah. This is a huge problem that a lot of people have is like they don’t think that they’re any good on video. They don’t want to really perform or anything, but it’s just a matter of kind of pretending that you’re with a client. Like if you’re a real estate agent, you’re interacting with people every day anyway. So just film that. Like show us live how you’re performing with your clients. And then now people know like, oh, I liked the way that they’re interacting with their clients. I want to work with them as well.
Jonathon: What did you mean by interaction with your client? Do you mean in these videos they should be talking about if they got a client that they should be talking about what they’re doing for that client? Is that what you’re suggesting?
Nick: Literally take a client and like ask if they don’t mind being on video and kind of show a house with them in it. So we actually, so I have people at the company that will actually perform with a real estate agent and make it look like that they’re showing the house. It’s kind of obviously staged and enacting kind of portion. But when you do that, when you’re kind of doing that and showing people just want to see other people doing their job. And if you are doing that well and if you’re kind of, if you’re an agent and you’re showing us how you do your job and you’re kind of giving us a real life sample of what you’re going to do for me, if I do want to sign on with you, then that’s going to be huge. That’s going to really make me excited to work with you or not excited to work with you. But either way you’re going to getting those answers immediately.
Jonathon: Yeah I follow that. So you doing this video, let’s say once a day and it’s from five to 20 minutes depending. And you are shown this insight about what you’re doing in real estate. What’s the next thing you will be doing?
Nick: Well, the videos should have an accompanying blog. So if you’re talking about market updates, right up a 1500 word blog post with it though are on your website, send that out to your network, Facebook, whatever, you know, get that link out there. And then everyone is now coming to your website, you’re able to track them and everything. You’re able to kind of have the Facebook pixel working on it. So you’re kind of retaining those kinds of free leads a little bit. And then that’s just all kind of helping the platform grow because you’re driving traffic and people are interacting with the website and such.
Jonathon: And what do you watch? You know, a lot of people writing a 1500 word piece. It’s just free care, but it’s not that big. But what, what would be some of the things that you would advise them? Robert`s laughing. It`s the reality Robert.
Robert: I do know this. Am just laughing at it.
Jonathon: If you write a 1500 word piece not the dismissive. But the easy and friendly way Nick said they probably run to the hills. But there we go. But what this piece of.
Robert: Well, he’s also, so I’m going to qualify something here guys. Nick, I love your enthusiasm, but the client that you’re talking about. It’s not the average person who’s listening to this show. The people inside real estate that have the kind of budget, that kind of time to kind of everything that you’re talking about are definitely real estate brokers. Not really so much agents and they’re running probably teams. I’m going to guess from 10 to 50 agents. The really big brokers, brokers who have hundreds of agents, which we had a broker on the other day that had 400 agents.
Those brokers have marketing departments. Right, and if they’re going to, if they’re going to be talking to you at all, it’s because they’re going to be. They’re going to be using your agency for a specific a thing that they’re going to stick into their marketing. Such as our marketing guys do know how to do Facebook marketing, but we’re not sure that they’re doing the absolute best job that can be done.
Thus will give you a $5,000 a month budget and see if you can get better results than we’ve been getting internally. Because they are already paying these guys, 50, 60, 70 grand a year to do the marketing for them. And they don’t need to hire a redundant resource unless they really feel like that resource is going to give them better results. So most of the people that listen to this show are like four agent and a thousand dollars a month. Which Jonathan threw at you? That’s the high end. Most of the time.
Nick: Believe me I know.
Robert: Yeah. So just putting that out there because I love your ideas and your enthusiasm. I also have worked with a couple of politicians. And they have to have a higher budget and they have to do an all-inclusive thing. But I’m curious to ask you a question. So you’ve obviously you think big and I love that. What do you do for your agency? So you’re in digital marketing just like we are. John and I both have to advertise our own agencies. And we do so differently him and me. So I’m curious to know what you do for yourself.
Nick: It’s a lot of. Oh, like to actually market the agents.
Robert: I’m sorry, what was the name of? Yeah, collaboration. So what do you do to market yourself?
Nick: It’s a ton of content. So we even have a whole meet up where it’s like we gather agents, lenders, investors, everything like that. At the meet up. We’ll just rants about kind of different tactics that we’re doing. Pretty much stuff like this and then that’s like a huge form of lead generation already. Just people that are coming into learn about that. And then we’re providing value and everything and then such. And then kind of on top of that, the blog posts, the videos. It’s just a ton of content. And although in the beginning we didn’t see any fruits from that. Now it’s, you know, it’s really picks up and picked up a little quickly for us just because we kind of did a huge push. But that’s kind of like the big thing is that it’s more content over advertising.
Robert: So you’re really talking about, you’re just doing it a different type of. You’re promoting the concept of inbound marketing. You’re just using promoted social a little bit more than let’s say I would do. Which is I’m doing more, I do inbound focused on, we’re focused on SEO and they’re two different things inbound. So inbound is high quality content that answers a really, really specific question or need. And then SEO is kind of like the mechanics to get that content recognized. That’s how I separate the two conversations. You’re really, what I’m hearing, and maybe I’m wrong, is that you are doing inbound, but you’re more heavily leaning on social to promote the inbound message. Am I right there?
Nick: So if we are doing advertisements and everything, it’s kind of where I’m not running ads to generate a lead. I’m running ads to build a fan. So I know I keep saying this, everything, it’s kind of like getting. Yeah. But uh, so if I’m running an ad, it’s like here’s a 20 minute keynote that we did at the last meet up and kind of, you know, consume our content and everything. And that way it’s, I’m not even asking for a lead in that, but I’m just asking for someone to, I guess recognize the company and recognize me, for example. And then at that point that person, it’s going to become a more valuable lead. Maybe not right now, but then in the future when I keep maybe pushing that ad, that’s not asking for anything in return, but instead just providing value, for example.
Jonathon: And to be fear we have given Nick, I’ll give the whole time. What Nick is describing is, you know, our beloved audience the reality is that you can have to do this to yourself additionally. Is that you’re going to have to put yourself out there just as you got to put yourself out there in the real world. You can have to put yourself out in the digital world. But the nice thing what Nick is trying to point out, I’m going to ask nick if he agrees with what I’m saying here. Is through social media, a few video on Facebook, twitter through blogging, through social media in general, especially using which we discussed. I think last week. Is that you have the technology to effectively do this to yourself and get yourself out there. And then get yourself into a position where you might be able to consider hiring somebody like Nick. Would you agree with that, Nick?
Nick: Yeah. So let me kind of turn the tables for a second here. Would you guys think that it’s unreasonable to ask a single agent to make four videos a day or four videos a week and then maybe like two blog posts a week? Is that like an unreasonable ask, would you say?
Nick: Yeah, because that’s what.
Robert: I’m sorry John; I didn’t even give me a chance, but go ahead. What do you want it, how do you want to respond to that?
Robert: They’ve got to really be motivated. And they really got to listen to a lot of this podcast. If they already listen to this podcast. So they have binged themselves on the knowledge that me and Robert have tried to get out there, especially Robert. Rob they probably would understand that they really do need. But on the other hand, you know, agents are kind of pushed in many directions during the week Nick. So it’s yes or no basically. So we’re going to wrap up the podcast now folks. Nick, how can people find out more about you and your company?
Nick: Of course. So if you had to collaboration.com, it’s spelled a little differently. C a l a, b o r a t I o n.com. You can find our agency work. We have some case studies coming up, everything and also training programs and stuff like that. If you’re in the New Jersey area, come to the boiler room for our meet up every Monday night. And yeah, you can follow me on twitter at Nick Labs. And yeah, that’s about it. Thank you guys so much for having me.
Jonathon: It has been a pleasure Nick. You have dealt with the script and inquires really effectively. Robert how can people. Robert how can we find out more about you and what you are up to?
Robert: I’m going to flip the script on you buddy. If you want to find, if you want to contact Jonathan, you can find him at mailright.com. And he is offering some really cool specials on his essay product and you should check it out. I have been slowly but surely checking it out myself. I am going to say my wonderful cohost Jonathan Denwood is definitely somebody that it’s least worth having a conversation with if you’ve got the time. So there.
Jonathon: That`s very kind of you to say. Thank you so much Robert. We will be coming back next week. With an expert or internal show where we going to try and offer some insights about this crazy world of online marketing. And how it could help you become a more effective agent and get the results that you and you’re looking for you, for yourself and for your family. We will be back soon. Bye folks.