273 Mail-Right Show Our 2021 Predictions Connected To Online Digital Marketing

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In this show, both Jonathan and Robert discuss in detail what they feel will be some of the leading trends in digital marketing connected to the real estate industry. Both of us agree this year is going to be all about a video in a big way and how this does not include Youtube but almost all the leading social media platforms.

Robert Newman: Welcome back to the Mail-Right Show ladies and gentlemen, you are with John and Robert Newman, and we are going to be making some predictions for the real estate marketing industry for 2021. I am super excited about this show; John is humoring me as he does so well. And we’re going to get right in or we’re going to take off but before we do, John, go ahead and introduce yourself properly.

Johnathan Denwood: No, and you forgot to say show 273.

Robert Newman: No, I said it.

Johnathan Denwood: You didn’t actually, you didn’t.

Robert Newman: Okay, by the way, for those that have missed it because I think I said it; it’s episode 273. Because I was just talking too fast for you, John.

Johnathan Denwood: There we go. But we’ve had an umph Christmas, New Year break, which seemed to go just like that, and we’ve come back. Robert seems to be really bright and bushy and up for it. We’re trying to get some great guests, we’re going to line up some great guests; we might have a couple of internal shows starting the new year, but we’re going to get some great guests, but we’re starting off with predictions. So, Robert, do you want to start this off with some of your predictions?

Robert Newman: I’d love to, this was my idea; For those of you who’ve gotten used to our individual personalities, this will surprise you not at all. So, I am stoked out of my mind to talk about what I think is going to happen in 2021. I’m shocked. I haven’t thought of this in previous years because I want to go back next year and review this show as part of 2022. So, for 2021, I’m going to start off with an easy prediction, something that John and I have been talking about consistently, but here’s the funny thing. I think that we’ve only been watching the staggering start of a sprint that relates to this particular kind of marketing.

I think that come 202 and I’m even going to proposition 2022, really all that you guys as realtors, whether you’re a broker or an agent are ever going to be hearing about is YouTube and video, video, video, video, video, video.

Johnathan Denwood: It’s really odd that you must have read, it’s just odd you’ve read my mind because you’ve just taken the tip, my opening remark from me, you bugger. That’s exactly what I was going to say.

Robert Newman: Well, let’s do a running start into it, I’ll start and show you what I think because I’ll give some groundwork to this prediction because I’m a numbers guy and I’m a marketer. So, one of the things that I noticed in 2020 was, I am of a group for Malcolm Lawson, who’s on our show. Now, he is a guy that just coaches people on YouTube real estate marketing and shows them how to create videos on their own, so no big deal. I think because I went through as part of this show and making predictions and I kind of counted. A lot of people were posting, oh, I did this, I made this many transactions in this year, all off video.

I stopped counting somewhere around the 4, 500 mark, there’s just too many, too many transactions, too many individual users; there are 2,714 users in that group. And there were at least 40 or 50 posts from individuals having done anywhere from 10 to 150 individual transactions off of YouTube. Now, even in a marketplace where your individual sales price is, let’s call it $250,000. Once you crack that a hundred transaction mark, that means there’s an individual marketing strategy that you can technically do yourself, that is generating you in excess of $25 million in sales.

Now, here’s what, one of the funny things was John, almost universally across everybody that was doing the posting, the types of videos that were helping them get those leads that turned into sales were the same. So, now here we are in 2020 with some solid strategies in places that everybody can find them where the help is free and they’re consistent. In other words, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in Montana, which like our friend Will was, or if you’re in Long Island. It doesn’t make a difference even though those markets are incredibly different. Apparently, video is working universally in almost every place that we can track.

Now because it’s so universal, that means that our listeners and agents, when they go onto YouTube and check to see what’s happening there, they’re going to find that there’s somebody somewhere in the County that they serve, probably that is already doing well off YouTube. They’ll have thousands of views and maybe they’ll see comments that are like, can I call you? Can I reach you? And they’ll go, oh, shit, that looks like people are generating business office and because the evidence is finally in front of everybody’s face, it’s not just you
and I saying it anymore, anybody who’s listening to this show, they can go look at it themselves and probably identify beyond a shadow of a doubt if somebody is making money doing it because of that.

Johnathan Denwood: It’s not only YouTube, my partner, Adam Brown, who helps me build Facebook campaigns for Mail-Right. He’s a video guy and all our adverts now are almost all video, our Facebook adverts because we were getting less, we had to do a slight pivot about six months ago because our normal image-based advert or carousel, just wasn’t getting the hits that they were. So, we’ve had to change all adverts on Facebook to video efforts and also upgrade their landing pages, so they literally have videos on them as well.

So, we’ve had to up our game there and I think it was before your time, but he’s a little bit controversial, but I’ve always had time for him; you probably know Grant Wise, he’s a great marketer. He’s a little bit as I said, a little bit controversial and I can’t really invite him on the show anymore or he probably wouldn’t come on anyway, is that he’s got a directly competing product to Mail-Right, which is Weebly. And I know that he’s on his Weebly, obviously, I keep an eye on the competition, and literally, all his training and his whole emphasis is their agents. If you’re doing Facebook adverts now, they have got to be video and you’ve got to learn how to do video.

I would say to almost Facebook, maybe Google Ads, I don’t know, it’s not an area that I delve in, Google AdWords. But I think the whole spectrum, maybe it does affect Google AdWords because it’s very expensive. So, you look at YouTube where the prices are, If you’re doing advertising on YouTube it’s a lot cheaper. Video is the game as far as I’m concerned, if you’re not into video as a real estate agent as a way of driving leads, you’re lost really as far as I’m concerned.

Robert Newman: I agree entirely, and dynamic video is something that Ylopo has already switched over to, most marketing companies that are actually focused on trying to pivot with what has been an ever increasingly challenging real estate market. Then most of the great marketers out there are pivoting to leveraging video inside their strategies; I’ve done it, Ylopo has done it, John has done it. So, which leads me to my prediction, number two, which I’m going to just slide right into John because you’re going to love this one, you’re going to love it. So, my prediction for 2021, for years now, John and I have been partnered on this show on this podcast; we met because I was a guest on this podcast, and we’ve become friends.

Johnathan Denwood: He’s one of my former co-hosts, I’m not being disparaging here because Bill laughs at it and his wife’s one of my tester agents, where we test some of our new campaigns and they get a discount because we have to test our campaigns. His wife’s a tester, but Bill’s one of my first co-hosts and I call him Crazy Bill. So, it’s a little bit disparaging, but he laughs, and I just lost.

Robert Newman: I don’t know where you were going, but anyway, so there was this crazy host that somehow transmitted into me another crazy host. So, Jonathan.

Johnathan Denwood: Oh, that’s it, he saw some of your videos and he suggested that you would be a good guest on the show, and I was impressed with your knowledge. So, I suggested that you should become my co-host because the previous one, Thomas, had to bail out, so that’s how you came on my radar, Robert.

Robert Newman: So, anyway, we’ve been now doing this though for a long time. I’ve been on the show for about 150 episodes.

Johnathan Denwood: Sure, about 18 months, haven’t you been?

Robert Newman: Yeah, so it’s been a minute, and in that time, John has been working on his own real estate lead generation system.

Johnathan Denwood: Which has taken an enormous amount of time because of the fundamentally and I’ve got to thank Adam for coming on board because I run another business that has financed, I’ve bootstrapped everything called Mail-Right from my other business. The problem with that is fortunately my other business is very busy, and I was struggling, and we had built something, but what I didn’t realize, it had a lot of niggly bugs in the system and it took us through our testers, through our agents. It took us about four or five, six months to get through all the bugs. Now, it’s pretty bug-free, and we can concentrate on the meat and potatoes, which are Facebook video campaigns that actually get results, which is the name of the game isn’t it?

Robert Newman: It is and for these reasons, my prediction for 2021 is that this is going to be a banner year for Mail-Right, for a number of different reasons. I say this for a number of different reasons, I’ve been sitting here patiently listening; I’ve developed a lot of software systems in the past and other iterations for my career. And so, you said, you had something good and I always believed you, but I know for a fact that the hard part of software development website development is not coming up with a good idea, that’s easy. It’s not even building it sometimes that’s not easy, but it’s doable.

What becomes a massive pain in the ass is when you take the thing that you’ve built and you put real live customers into it because only then do you start to see a thousand holes in the ship that you never saw yourself because you didn’t think to use the thing that you built, the way that these people use it. Now, I’ve been watching you and listening to you plug these holes for six straight months, as you already mentioned, and here’s what I know to be a fact.

There’s plenty of space in the lower part of the real estate market for somebody that will let new agents or agents in year one through five, get a taste of social media leads and get to see what they are without necessarily signing them up for 13, 14 and $20,000 contracts, which is universally what I ended up recommending on my website because I’m only recommending these really established, super expensive providers. I’m taking right now, John, no joke; one to two calls a day from agents that are asking me about something on a lesser tier.

Johnathan Denwood: Send them to us I’ll have to have Adam on the show, my partner and we have to discuss, but Adam has been a God found because he’s helped me sort out all the bloody bugs, and it’s really a nice little system now. And Crazy Bill, he’s a little bit negative, some of the agents that we’ve had as testers, I get a little bit frustrated with them because they don’t follow through. We provide the leads, but we can’t literally physically make them follow true. So, that’s been a little bit frustrating, but you just got to take it as it comes. But if you’re really looking at Facebook now, if you’re going to get any success, you have got to really look at video now.

This is what happens in general, the barrier gets harder, when and I’m not being disparaging; I think you would soon put me in my place but when Grant Wise is at the market, just understanding the Facebook platform and just doing the mechanics and just basic follow free was enough to get results. It’s now a lot more competitive, isn’t it?

Robert Newman: I do agree. I do agree. So, those are my good predictions, now I have some other predictions that are not as nice.

Johnathan Newman: Well, we’re coming up to the halfway break, so maybe I should interrupt you now, and then we go for the halfway. So, if you want to do the halfway break and then come back?

Robert Denwood: All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for tuning in so far. We’re going to go for a break, we’ll be back in a couple of minutes.

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Robert Newman: Welcome back to the Mail-Right podcast, it’s episode 273, John and I are making predictions about what’s going to happen in 2021. So far, just to recap the show up to this moment, we have predicted that 2021 is really, truly going to be year YouTube video and we both shared our thoughts on that. I predicted that 2021, is going to be a banner year for Mail-Right, the system that John has been building and working on for years.

Johnathan Denwood: Right, I’ve invested $20,000 into it so far, which is peanuts really which is really dirt cheap. If I’d done it in Python or Ruby on Rails, we’d be looking at a hundred thousand dollars easily. I’m sure, Grant Wise, I keep mentioning him and I wish him well, I don’t wish my competitors because it’s such a big market, I think good luck to us all. But I know that his platform, he built it on Ruby on Rails, so he’s probably invested a hundred to a quarter of a million dollars in his own platform.

Robert Newman: You’re being nice.

Johnathan Denwood: I know, but what about BoldLeads, I think they built that all in Ruby on rails, didn’t they?

Robert Newman: Not the original iteration, maybe the one that everybody uses right now, yes. But the original iteration was built with $5,000 out of their personal chat.

Johnathan Denwood: It was WordPress PHP.

Robert Newman: Danny and Christine, yeah, they built it with something basic; then it started to take off and they rebuilt it probably you’re right on Ruby, but not the original iteration. The original iteration was built on something else because I have that in my interview with them where it was $5,000. So, I have some additional predictions about specific marketing companies, things like that. But John I’ve been taking up the microphone, at least in terms of making the predictions, you’ve been commenting a lot. Do you have any of your own that you haven’t talked about?

Johnathan Denwood: I’ve got one that’s a bit out there, it’s just a gut feeling. I’ve been very critical of a lot of marketing in the real estate industry, where they’ve introduced the term artificial intelligence, AI, and the same thing has been on my other podcast. I do another podcast and it’s not being so prevalent, but there have been some companies and marketing spiel that’s been around AI, and most of it is smoke and mirrors.

The fundamentals of effective real estate or digital marketing haven’t changed over the past five years, it’s basically either you use SEO and what you do, which is article-based, you invest in the medium long term or use Google AdWords or Facebook advertising to drive people to a landing page and you offer them an inducement. Then you put them on an email, text messaging, drip marketing feed, and that’s been the staple. And it hasn’t fundamentally changed, but there’s been a lot of smoke and mirrors about AI, and most of it, in my opinion, I’ll be fascinated to hear your opinion, has been bullshit, basically, absolute bullshit.

I actually think this year, we are going to see some products that probably have more meat on the carcass. Sorry to use the metaphors, I just love them, don’t I? That’s going to be more real than what we’ve seen at the present moment. So, over to you, I’m fascinated to see your critique of what I’ve just said.

Robert Newman: Okay, where do you want me to volunteer the opinion? I got lost, you shared a lot there.

Johnathan Denwood: Well, do you agree with me that most of what we’ve heard so far in the past eighteen months, that most of these, we’re using AI to see the customer and we can provide custom leads to you, and I just think it’s been smoke and mirrors, really?

Robert Newman: It has been, so, yes. So, here’s what, from a very technical perspective, I’ve noticed about AI. People are getting very liberal calling stuff, AI, which by the way, for those that may not know AI stands for artificial intelligence or AL is autonomous learning. Now, AI and AL have been usually associated with one another, so if I say that John has created a product with artificial intelligence, most people automatically assume it has AL attached, which means it can learn. A lot of people, including Ylopo are guilty of calling something AI, that is not AI at all, it’s not fucking artificial intelligence.

What they did was they took 400 data points and they analyzed them and created a communication system around 400 solid-state points. Now, that is not AI, that’s a very sophisticated marketing automation drip, that’s what it is; they just don’t want to call it that. So, they use the word AI inappropriately, not that they’re not doing something brilliant because they are, just the label on it is not accurate.

Johnathan Denwood: Well, we have to get a longer show, you keep plugging them. So, if you could get one of them to come.

Robert Newman: I’ll see if I can get Ge to come on or Ge or Howard, probably G is more likely. I’ll see if I can get him to come on and if not him, then maybe Aaron Franklin. But I’m not really so much plugging them, I just feel like they’ve done better stuff right now at this moment, I just want everybody else to hear me.

Johnathan Denwood: Thank God because the amount of time I’ve spent on Mail-Right, thank God for me because I was worried that I’ve missed the boat because it’s taken us so long to work out all the bugs. But I totally underestimated the amount of effort, time, money, and resources to build something. But the fundamental landscape of digital marketing in real estate, take away all the bullshit, there’s plenty of bullshit in this space. The fundamentals have been pretty static for the past five years, where the change has happened is on the actual paid platforms.

And also, in SEO terms, I’m sure there are regular changes in the SEO landscape, but when I’m talking about paid traffic, Facebook and Google, the fundamentals have kept static. They just got more competitive as more and more people have realized that for them to get success, they are going to have to adopt digital marketing if they want a future in the real estate industry. We’ve also discussed those that use what I call the Pothini mythology, which works, but it’s more used by established real estate agents. And they don’t have to bother with digital marketing, but if you’ve come into the market after the great recession, if you don’t have a digital strategy, you’re probably not going to get great growth, are you?

Robert Newman: I would agree. I would agree. So, to put this into a prediction to encapsulate everything that John just said, and to throw it to the format of the show. The way that I heard that was, John is continuing to predict that while digital marketing is becoming more and more relevant, there’s probably going to have to be an increase. Here’s how I’m going to interpret that, I’m going to interpret that as you as the end-users, the people listening to this show, there’s going to have to be an increased level of understanding of learning in 2021 because everybody’s going to have a new line of bullshit just to be truthful about it.

And you have to understand what’s behind the baloney, which is probably why you listen to a marketing show done by two transparent marketing vets because there is a lot of baloney out there, John is a hundred percent correct. I absolutely agree with the fundamental part of what you said, John, that there’s a lot of out there. Now, on that track, I’m going to make a very rapid-fire series of predictions that have to do with companies that have not necessarily been shoveling a lot of bullshit but have definitely not been true to their Ps and Qs.

Johnathan Denwood: I just want to quickly, and I want your feedback about this because it’s really related to the volume of leads generated. The number of leads generated by these platforms, by the lead generated industry, that’s linked to real estate have just ballooned. And what exactly is a lead and that’s a whole discussion from a separate show because that also is very misleading and there are so many different attitudes. But the one thing, the market hasn’t expanded, but the number of leads generated has just expanded, hasn’t it, Robert?

Robert Newman: Yes, and I think that you should write that down because that is our next show. What is a lead, seriously right now? What is the lead? What should be considered a lead? Because most of those are bullshit too, honestly. And there isn’t anybody listening to this show that has ever paid for any leads any time in the last year that isn’t sitting here, nodding in their car or wherever the fuck they are and going you guys are right because most of the leads you’re getting are bullshit. Some of those we can control as marketers and some of them, honestly, we can’t.

So, let’s talk about what’s a lead, and let’s talk about how market conditions are affecting leads and what providers are guilty of, and what the market itself is guilty of in terms of signing up for shit and not ever responding to you and things like that. But I don’t want to lose track of my predictions and I don’t want to go into another show. So, here they are rapid-fire. My first couple of kind of semi sort of negative predictions is coming actually not out of the direct. So, there’s a lot of different types of real estate marketing. One of the types that I live in is not oftentimes talked about on this show, which is information marketing.

There are two huge information marketing real estate sites that are out there, that we’ve never talked about on the show or rarely talk about, and one is Fit Small Business, and the other is called theclose.com. These are websites that almost everybody listening to this show has probably seen at some point because if you’ve ever Googled open house sign-up sheets, real estate postcards, real estate marketing you’re coming across these sites. They literally own every single broad keyword that there is for real estate marketing, every single one.

So, anybody listening to this that’s done some Google searches, including on the systems that you probably have found me for, you’ve also found these two websites, Fit Small Business and The Close. Here’s the thing I predict that 2021 is the year that they scale down their business and they get more honest in their marketing because as affiliate marketers, they have been absolutely some of the people shoveling some of this stuff that you just talked about. Because what they do is they wildly over-exaggerate the benefit of sub-par platforms that are willing to give them top commissions on their website. So, when you read The Close, I just read a review on Propertybase that is totally not rooted in reality, it’s a puff piece.

Johnathan Denwood: Well, it’s the problem though, and you can blame me, people do, and it’s a difficult one because it’s also the expectations of the actual end use of the real estate industry, the real estate agent themselves unless the purpose is to promote Mail-Right, for you to promote your service. But we do it, and I honestly want to say this, and I feel you’re the same, we also honestly want to educate the industry a little bit. And I think we’ve come across as being honest for that because the podcast has grown a lot over the past 18 months, our audience has doubled, tripled. So, I think they must be getting something from it, and I think we honestly do when they educate people.

And it’s just been a sorry story because a lot of agents want to hear that kind of exaggerated claims of how many leads, they can generate, and most of it is just smoke and mirrors and bullshit, isn’t it?

Robert Newman: I predict that even though this was one of my darlings in terms of real estate systems, I predict that 2021 is also a year that we watch traction for BoldLeads slip. They’ve sold off the property base; I’ve seen very little work on the platform, I’ve heard more and more disappointed users which by the way, I don’t think is a problem with the platform, I think it’s a problem with the way that they educate their clients. They are doing very little to outreach to their clients and develop user expectations or educate them on how to get better results off their platform, something, all these things that why Ylopo is doing and which sounds again like I’m talking up Ylopo, I don’t feel that way though.

I feel most marketing companies, and actually let’s make this a broad prediction, that the companies that are going to thrive in 2021 are going to make efforts to continue to educate their clients about how to use an increasingly complicated set of tools. And I don’t care if it’s you John or me on my SEO side, all of our tools are complicated. I’ve built a drag and drop website editor; I never talk to my clients about it when I’m selling the product because I got so much other complicated shit that I got to talk to them about. I’m not even going to bother to tell them that I’m building this world-class website, which by the way, I spent $150,000 building my WordPress website platform.

So, listening to your 20 grand, I’m like, oh God, that’s music to my ears. But it doesn’t matter because we have to do better, all of us, you, me, every single company out there, we have to do better at educating our customers on how to use the shit that we’re building that’s cool. And all the people that are making, I’m making some efforts I could be doing a lot better. Propertybase is making no efforts and no efforts since they acquired and nor is Sync, Sync is a little bit more prolific, so they have users making efforts, but Sync still tries to put everybody into classrooms that they charge you for.

All of those old models, old marketing models, where you have to pay extra to earn more, or the knowledge isn’t intuitive in the platform. I predict that as 2021 and 2022 are upon us, the people who aren’t getting smart about the way they’re educating on complicated tools, are going to do worse, and the people who are smart about it are going to do much better, that’s my prediction.

Johnathan Denwood: Everything I talk about on Mail-Right, I’ve built a coherent, basic CRM. The truth about CRMs, you can have elaborate CRMs and there’re some elaborate, and they’re still good. I think they’re really aimed for power essential users that kind of hands out the leads that come from these more, but fundamentally the best CRM is the CRM that you use. Most CRMs, most agents don’t use them, they buy a year subscription and after one month, they don’t use them. So, the best CRM is the CRM that’s actually used.

Robert Newman: You understand, yeah, I couldn’t agree with that more. The CRM that you use is going to be the one that you understand, which is once again, I don’t think that listen, everybody, asks me because I’ve done a glorious, beautiful piece on Follow Up Boss, and everybody’s always like, is this the best CRM? Is this the best this? Is this the best that?

Johnathan Denwood: It’s a fantastic product, but it’s not for the light-hearted, even I, I don’t know about you because you have more experience about using it, but I’ve set it up for people, but I don’t do it regularly. I’ve done it as kind of as a freebie, I’ve done it as a friendship kind of thing. And my God and I’m used to the systems and it’s not for the light-hearted, is it?
Robert Newman: Nope, but here’s what they’ve got going, they did intuitive learning much better than any other system, which is why I talk them up better than any other system. They have three-minute videos in every single section of their CRM.

Johnathan Denwood: Yup, they do

Robert Newman: So, it makes them, and I’ve used those three-minute vignettes to learn the platform. And I’d say 95% of my questions end up getting covered by the video, once I watch it. Does that make it easy?

Johnathan Denwood: But you’ve got to understand though, you’re an intelligent person, but you can’t divorce yourself from all the knowledge. How can you put yourself in the shoes of your average height, reasonably intelligent, motivated real estate agent? Them facing it because you’ve got all this and both you and I have looked at quite a few of these systems. So, it’s really hard to, am I making any sense or am I waffling?

Robert Newman: No, you’re making sense, and you’re basically saying it’s hard for me to be constructive because of my background and my knowledge and I don’t disagree with you, I think you’re right. I think that the way I measure it, the way that I try to be equal handed is if I have a little frustration, I usually assume that it’s going to be a great amount of frustration for somebody else. If I look at something and it’s slightly hard or slightly difficult or not intuitive, I figure for somebody else, it might be completely unintelligible, but you are right.

I open up a system, and what I’ve noticed is a lot of people open it up, they look at it and they close it out because they go, oh my fucking God, this is going to take me hours, and I don’t do that. That initial fear is not there, and that’s because I’ve spent so much time and have so much knowledge. I do get exhausted doing my Commissions Inc. review was one of the first times where I hit this point where I was just like, I don’t want to do this anymore. Just so, many filters, so much stuff to talk about, so much to look at; I literally was like, I understand why they teach this shit in classes, which is great for a robust tool and horrible for usability. If I’m looking at it.

Johnathan Denwood: It’s a tool aimed at where you got a power team, you’ve got a centralized aid agent that is using it, that gives leads out to a power team. Or you got a boutique brokerage, and they got a digital manager and they’re doing this, to me, it’s not a tool that’s designed for the average agent that’s got all the allowed commitments on their time. It’s just asking too much. It’s just asking too much.

Robert Newman: Yeah, agreed.

Johnathan Denwood: And I’m being as non-biased as I can be being that I’ve got a product in the area, but I try and be as rational and fair as I can, that’s my opinion. I think we need to wrap it up, Robert, and then we’re going to have another great chat next week because we just scratched the surface.

Robert Newman: So, as we close the show companies that are going to slide a little bit in 2021 predictions, BoomTown, Commissions, Inc. Not to say they’re bad companies just don’t think that they’re positioned right for the year. So, that’s it, that’s my end, John, thank you for humoring me, sir, I deeply appreciate it. Why don’t you go ahead and share one more time with our listeners and viewers, how they could reach you if they want to. Well, so actually I’m going to do it, do me a favor, I’m going to wind this up slightly differently. So, guys, John is, occupying a very unusual spot inside the real estate marketing industry.

If you have a smaller budget and you’re trying to get into these social media leads, he might be a good place to start for agents, years one through five. He and I are both not the ones to say to you ever, that our system is the only system that you should use this exclusively, any of those things. However, John has specifically designed a service aimed at, the newer into real estate marketing people that need some leads. Now, there are lots of pros and cons to this and you should talk to him about what those are. The one thing as his co-host that I feel would happen, he will be completely honest with you that I feel like I can say. So, John with that kind of windup, how can people reach you if they want to?

Johnathan Denwood: Just go to the Mail-Right website, my phone number is on there. You can ring it up and I pick up the phone normally, or I get back to you SEO, if I’m busy with something else, just leave a voice message and I’ll get back to you. Or you can book a half-hour free discussion with me and just pick my brain, and you’re the same, aren’t you? But you’re aimed at a more mature, and I’ll put it in words in your voice but I’m sure you’ll soon put me right. You are aimed at somebody that’s further on in their career, but for that individual, your fantastic solution as well, because you’ve got all this knowledge, Robert. So, I think we complement both and that’s how we’ve managed to grow this podcast. So, I think we better wrap it up because we’re almost out of time.

Robert Newman: Well, then let me tell everybody how to, I have one last request, we are going to wrap it up. So, one last thing you can always learn about me, Robert Newman on my website, inboundrem.com. Also, I have a personal plea to all the people listening to the show, which I’m springing on John, he didn’t know I was going to do it. But guys, we need some new reviews on our iTunes profile, okay. We have 14, mostly five-star reviews, but the most recent one was 2017. So, for all of you downloading the shows off iTunes, I personally because I know a lot of you know me personally, I am personally asking for the favor of you going ahead and reviewing.

I’m not asking you to lie or misrepresent, leave us whatever review you feel comfortable leaving, but please give us some stars and tell us what you thought of the show we could use it.

Johnathan Denwood: I will understand that you say that Robert is the intelligent one and the idiotic English geezer, I know my place.

Robert Newman: Yeah, you definitely got the better sense of humor though. All right, so, thanks, John. Now, we can wrap it up. Thank you, everybody, for tuning in. We really deeply appreciate it and John, go ahead and unplug us.

Johnathan Denwood: We’ll see you, next week folks, bye.

Robert Newman: Bye